Maco buys Agfa !!!

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cvik

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edz:
I didn't know Efke was gone allthough I've noticed the name change. I doubt it's because of Maco though. But, does this mean Efke, Forte, Agfa, Rollei and Maco are just selling film while supplies last? What about the new Rollei films? (R3 and Pan25 didn't, AFAIK, exist under a different brand before). What about Forte paper?

I don't use Ilford products except for PanF and peceptol. If the companies above are gone I'll probably go over to the dark side. Anyone interested in an enlarger or cameras?
 

jandc

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cvik said:
edz:
I didn't know Efke was gone allthough I've noticed the name change. I doubt it's because of Maco though. But, does this mean Efke, Forte, Agfa, Rollei and Maco are just selling film while supplies last? What about the new Rollei films? (R3 and Pan25 didn't, AFAIK, exist under a different brand before). What about Forte paper?

I don't use Ilford products except for PanF and peceptol. If the companies above are gone I'll probably go over to the dark side. Anyone interested in an enlarger or cameras?

As usual edz doesn't have a clue what he's babbling about. Efke is producing film as we speak including new runs of the ortho films, PL25 and PL100 along with paper. Forte is is also producing paper and film. They just shipped us a new run of the 400 film a couple of weeks ago. Efke's restructuring last year was to eliminate excess labor costs that like with other companies that have gone into bankruptcy couldn't fire anyone.
 

edz

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jandc said:
As usual edz doesn't have a clue what he's babbling about.
:smile:

Efke is producing film as we speak including new runs of the ortho films, PL25 and PL100 along with paper.
What do you mean by "new runs"? Are they coating or fabricating? There is a big difference. MINOX, for instance, is still fabricating Minopan 25 cartridges for their submini cameras (Minopan 25 is the long discontinued APX25 which was last coated years ago). Ask Mirko when he thinks some of the films you are getting were coated! Ask David Foy when he thinks the Bluefire Police film he sells was coated.....


Forte is is also producing paper and film.
I never claimed otherwise. In the case of "New Ekfe" I just pointed out that "I'm not quite clear what they are doing."
So, are they coating? What? At what rate (cycle)?
(btw. one does not sell fresh film or paper since they need like meat, wine and tobacco to be "aged").
Agfa, for example, only coated B&W materials twice a year. Industrial materials were, for the most part, coated to significantly longer intervals. The last run of the film coating at Agfa was a aerographic material, for example, intended to fill demand for no less than 1/2 a decade or so (perhaps even longer do to the shifting demands)--- and this a film with significantly less keeping properties than any of the consumer B&W materials we are normally concerned with here.

Efke's restructuring last year was to eliminate excess labor costs that like with other companies that have gone into bankruptcy couldn't fire anyone.
The question is: Are they coating (The same question I've asked Cybergraphics, the current name for Oriental, http://www.cybergraphics.co.jp/ about their papers and have recieved no answer) ???

I don't want to know who is fabricating films and papers but who is coating.
 

avandesande

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The efke film with the new adox package has a much higher expiration date than the stuff in the old box. Sounds like a newly made emulsion to me.
 

Photo Engineer

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Just a quick note in response to EDZs post above.

I used to get production runs of color materials right from the end of the coating machine, and I would process them for 'first tests' as we called it.

The film or paper was supposed to meet release specifications at that instant.

There was no aging involved in the products I worked with, so although it might be true of some prodcuts (Kodachrome comes to mind at one time), or with some manufacturers, it is not a hard and fast rule.

In the long ago past, many products had to be aged, but it was mainly a hardener issue. For example, the chrome alum hardener and some others took weeks to months to fully harden the gelatin. This is no longer true.

Most products of present manufacture can be sold immediately after coating AFAIK.

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Depending on sales of Agfa products by Maco , perhaps there is a hope for production continuity and this will be a good thing for all.
 

edz

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Photo Engineer said:
Just a quick note in response to EDZs post above.

I used to get production runs of color materials right from the end of the coating machine, and I would process them for 'first tests' as we called it.

The film or paper was supposed to meet release specifications at that instant.
I'm under the impression that for colour materials there is still ripening routinely done (despite vast improvements in dye couplers). We've, however, been addressing B&W materials and the companies I've familiar with tend to have a working cycle that includes ripening. Historical left over or needed?

Most products of present manufacture can be sold immediately after coating AFAIK.
Did EK not ripen their B&W films and papers or did they cut them, box them and ship? Or did they not effectively include ripening by virtue of the production process (master rolls are called jumbos for good reason)?
So you are suggesting that they are perhaps not sold but could be?
 

Photo Engineer

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Ed, the only products that I know for a fact were held for ageing were the following:

Products pre 1970 using Formaldehyde, Chrome Alum, Mucochloric acid and etc for hardening. Type "R" paper, and certain formulations of Kodachrome of different generations based on formulation. (Type "R" was a beast as it used 9 different emulsions and I have posted comments about it elsewhere here)

Products post 1970 were usable at the end of the coating machine. I have done it more times than I care to remember and have gotten release aim quality even at 100F with the C41 and EP2 processes.

Sales were based on projections from marketing, and a timing factor was included. So, if the peak season for studio portraits was in June for weddings, but the film was scheduled for coating in Feb, then it got held. Otherwise, AFAIK, most of the products could be sold right away. In any event, I've run the experiments to prove it on more than one product.

I cannot speak for what policy Kodak marketing or manufacturing followed for a given product. They may have had a special schedule to follow to insure that the expiration dates were all consistant or whatever. I can say that I never tracked an emulsion past a certain point in the plant, so for example I would get a piece from a master roll and then test it. I would retest it with another cut given me later that week, and these would be compared with plant results and it would be passed or rejected. After that I lost interest in and track of the coating. I had too much else to do after I told the coaters it was good or bad.

And, I was usually only involved up to a certain point where the new formulation was approved for production, as I was doing R&D, not QC on a given product.

All I can tell you is what can or could have been done. Whether EK followed that practice is not up to me and I didn't look into it for anything but the few products that I worked with or what I overheard from others.

PE
 

severian

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rodinal

Somebody, somewhere must have a formula for Rodinal and while I'm at it how about HC-110 since it will probably go away soon.
Jack
 

srs5694

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severian said:
Somebody, somewhere must have a formula for Rodinal and while I'm at it how about HC-110 since it will probably go away soon.

The problem with the Rodinal formula is deciding which one to use! Seriously, there are several out there. AFAIK, none claims to be precisely the same as what Agfa is/was selling, but most that claim to be "Rodinal-like" should be virtually identical in terms of results. Here's one that's online. Another is published in Anchell's Darkroom Cookbook. Note that I've not tried any of these, so I can't offer personal advice on which ones work best.

As to HC110, I vaguely recall seeing a reverse-engineered formula for it somewhere, but I didn't save a reference. You might try doing a Web search. (You can also do a Web search if you want more Rodinal-like formulas, too.) Of course, a reverse-engineered formula might or might not bear much resemblance to to real thing.
 

Donald Qualls

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One immediate replacement for HC-110, a good thing if only because one company is likely to carry on when the other drops chemicals, is Ilfotec HC -- based on what I've seen, it's a direct replacement for HC-110 in any dilution and on any film.

I've recently been using a Rodinal substitute made from acetaminophen tablets, lye drain opener, and sodium sulfite; I hope to get some KBr to add to the next batch, but as is it works pretty well at the Rodinal times, and gives cheap a whole new meaning -- developer cost per roll is about 2.2 cents at 1:50 dilution. And yes, it still works when it gets to the color of strong coffee...

The most recent upload in my gallery was done in this developer; I'm pretty happy with it. :smile:
 

Canuck

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Donald Qualls said:
I've recently been using a Rodinal substitute made from acetaminophen tablets, lye drain opener, and sodium sulfite; I hope to get some KBr to add to the next batch, but as is it works pretty well at the Rodinal times, and gives cheap a whole new meaning -- developer cost per roll is about 2.2 cents at 1:50 dilution. And yes, it still works when it gets to the color of strong coffee...

The most recent upload in my gallery was done in this developer; I'm pretty happy with it. :smile:

Ok, Donald. You have my attention. Please sir ... may I have more information :smile:
 

srs5694

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Canuck said:
Ok, Donald. You have my attention. Please sir ... may I have more information :smile:

I'm not Donald, but there have been several recent threads that have discussed acetaminophen-based Rodinal substitutes. Here are pointers to three:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Note that this isn't the primary topic of discussion in all of these threads, so you may have to hunt for the relevant posts. Also note that there are several such formulas out there, with varying degrees of similarity to actual Rodinal in action, and even varying degrees of usability. A Web search may turn up more.

The key to understanding this is to know that acetaminophen is chemically related to para-aminophenol, the developing agent in Rodinal. The working hypothesis in these discussions is that the chemical reactions when mixing acetaminophen tablets with other stuff converts it into para-aminophenol. With the right other ingredients, the result is something that's chemically very similar to Rodinal.
 

Donald Qualls

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Canuck, my first batch took me about 15 minutes to mix, including smashing 30 acetaminophen tablets (inside an envelope) with an 8 ounce ball pien hammer.

I used the following:

250 ml 20% sodium sulfite solution
30 tablets @ 500 mg acetaminophen
20 g Red Devil Lye

The lye I used was from a new container -- if the container is airtight, it'll keep pretty well, but if it's lumpy it's absorbed water and/or carbon dioxide from the air and should probably just be discarded and replaced; it's only about $5 for a pound. And I used the sulfite stock solution because I already had it; you could just as easily start with warm water (say, 100 F) and dissolve 50 g of sulfite in it.

The solution will get warmer (in my case, by about 8 F) when you add the lye; add it gradually, with lots of stirring. And do use skin and especially eye protection when mixing; a droplet of lye solution (including the net 8% lye of the final concentrate) too small to notice immediately can cause permanent damage to your vision.

After everything is stirred, the solution will be very cloudy and chalk white. Seal airtight and let stand for at least 48 hours, 3 days is probably better. The solution will change to a light pink or tea color, and stratify into a darker, less chalky upper layer and a whiter, pretty opaque lower. Don't worry about the little rags and tatters of tableting material; they don't seem to hurt anything even if they get into the developing tank.

As you use it and allow air in, the solution will darken (just as Rodinal does). I've got a bottle that was mixed about 4 weeks ago, is the color of Coca-Cola, and works perfectly even at 1:100, same dilutions and times as Rodinal. No idea how long it'll last, but it is important not to filter or decant off the crystals that eventually form in the bottom of the bottle; those represent an excess of the p-aminophenol sulfonate over what's made soluble by the sodium hydroxide, and as such are the key to the hyperlongevity of Rodinal type developers. If the solution is removed from the crystals, the tiniest excess of sodium hydroxide will cause rapid oxidation of the dissolved developing agent and failure of the developer.

BTW, if you use distilled water at $1/gallon to make up the solution, it ought to cost you around 55 cents for 250 ml, but it'll cost about $17 to get started -- $5/lb for sulfite, $5/lb for lye, and $7 for 1000 acetaminophen tablets at Costco.
 

Canuck

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Thanks Donald for your experiences with the aceto/rodinal. I will try this the first chance I get. So, just to make sure I understand, after the reaction has taken place after the appropiate period, I don't have to decant or filter anything for use? I just dilute and develop?

Elvis
 

srs5694

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Donald Qualls said:
I used the following:

250 ml 20% sodium sulfite solution
30 tablets @ 500 mg acetaminophen
20 g Red Devil Lye
...
BTW, if you use distilled water at $1/gallon to make up the solution, it ought to cost you around 55 cents for 250 ml, but it'll cost about $17 to get started -- $5/lb for sulfite, $5/lb for lye, and $7 for 1000 acetaminophen tablets at Costco.

So are the above ingredients to make 250ml of (concentrated) developer, or some other amount?
 

Donald Qualls

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srs5694 said:
So are the above ingredients to make 250ml of (concentrated) developer, or some other amount?

No added water beyond the starting amount -- it's probably a few ml over 250 when you're done, but that's the concentrate. I usually dilute 1:50, but it works at 1:25 and 1:100 as well, same times as Rodinal.
 
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