M3 double stroke with 1mil+ serial #?? (PICS ADDED)

[Norkusa]

I have my eye on a Leica M3 at a local shop. It looks good and I might buy it, but I talked to them over the phone and they said it was a double stroke M3. Last time I was in there, I was able to look at it up close and even took some photos of it on my phone but I didn't try using the film advance lever. Photos I took clearly show its a 1mil+ serial number and I thought all M3's with a SN that high are single strokes? Was the store owner confused? Or are there double stroke M3's with 1mil+ serial numbers floating around? I know DS to SS conversions aren't unusual, but SS to DS possible?

 

[Patrick Robert James]

The top plate may say 1mil but if it is a double stroke you should look at the other identifiers like strap lugs. It is possible that someone converted it to a double stroke or someone stuck a top plate on another camera, or even had a few cameras and made a frankenleica. People do all kinds of crazy things with Leicas.

 

[frank]

frankenleica

 

[Norkusa]

Weeeeird. This M3 has newer-style strap lugs, frame selector and a geometric shutter speed dial too. When I go back to check out the camera, is there anything else that I should look for to see if it's a DS conversion or 'frankenleica'? Aside from the leatherette crackling off, its in great shape and I don't see any dings or scuffs on it.

 

[BMbikerider]

Has it got the more modern flash connector the - PC type. There used to be an adapter for the Leica original but they were always falling out. It was an option later to have a 'standard' fitment

It is unlikely to be a copy, that was mainly the screw fit earlier models that the old USSR copied. The M3 was a little more difficult. The best people to tell would of course be Leitz, they did a lot of conversions and modifications. There is a company in England called Peter Loy cameras and he is a specialist in Leicas. He would probably know. His E Mail is: perterloy@peterloy.com His website is quite extensive and very easy to navigate.

 

[chip j]

DS are smoother than SS.

 

[frank]

If you buy it, get a warrantee that covers film transport.

 

[Norkusa]

Has it got the more modern flash connector the - PC type. There used to be an adapter for the Leica original but they were always falling out. It was an option later to have a 'standard' fitment

I didn't take any pictures of the rear of the M3, but it looks like there some kind of socket adapter sticking out of the right side socket (when looking top-down from behind the camera). There's a white protective cap in the socket to the left, so I can't see what kind of connector that is. Does this mean anything? I'll try to post photos later.

 

[mdarnton]

Many people prefer DS and at one time Leitz would do a backwards conversion. DS is both smoother and tougher.

 

[John Layton]

Sounds like the top plate might have been switched out at some point.

 

[frank]

The top plate/serial number doesn't match the film advance design. One of them has been changed.

 

[Norkusa]

Here are a few snaps I took with my phone. Was deciding between the M3 and the M2 (The M2 is $100 more than the M3). Lenses sold separately

 

[Fixcinater]

Did you go back and confirm whether it is a DS or SS or just upload the photos from the same original visit?

 

[Norkusa]

Did you go back and confirm whether it is a DS or SS or just upload the photos from the same original visit?

Took those last time I was there. Checking it out in-person this weeked.

 

[summicron1]

It is entirely possible the shop owner doesn't know the difference between a single and doublestroke Leica -- worse stupidities have happened. Pick it up, try it out, there's your answer.

The thing poking out of the right-hand flash plug is a leica-to-pc adaptor, you can put it in either the strobe or bulb socket, they usually plug in there pretty hard so they don't easily fall out, but just pull out. God only knows why Leica decided to use a proprietary flash plug on the M2 and M3. The M4 uses a pc plug as god intended.

Either camera is good -- the decision is whether you want to be able to use 35mm lenses without goggles. If so, M2 is your baby, but then you have to manually re-set the film counter. If you want automatic counter re-set, and those spiffy frames around the finder windows, and a guard around the lens button, then the M3 is the one to have.

Can't decide? Buy both!

 

[KeithM]

According to Leica WiKi it falls within this batch:-

1093801 1097700** Leica M3 (Schwz Lackiert+chrom-ss) 1964 3900**

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Personally, as the owner of an M3, I would suggest you get the M2. The M3 is really only good for 50mm on up, and that is only if you don't wear glasses. With glasses it is really a camera for a 90mm lens. My M3 was given to me by a friend so I would never get rid of it, and it is a beautiful camera, but it has it's limitations, which are also it's strengths depending on how you look at it. If you want to use it for portraits or shoot with the Noctilux, then it is the best Leica there is. If you want to shoot with a 35mm lens then it is the worst Leica.

I am curious what lens you are going to put on it. If you had to choose between the Nikkor or the Summicron, I would go with the Nikkor. The Summicron in your picture is a dual range, and a great lens, but if it doesn't come with the goggles they are a pain to find.

 

[Norkusa]

Thanks for the info, Patrick. I already own an 35 + 50mm 'cron (+ M6TTL), so I'll just be getting a body. I thought I could just wing it and guesstimate the frame lines on a M3 + 35mm combo but that might not work well. I'm considering the M2 now but I'll play around with both and see what I like more. I always shoot with contacts in, so viewfinder shouldn't be an issue.

I'd *love* to get that dual range summicron...it's in beautiful condition and it does come with the googles. Not sure if its worth trading in my tabbed type 4 50mm Canadian summicron to get though. Have you ever used the dual range summicron?

 

[Fixcinater]

I wear glasses and find the M3 quite good for 50mm but I use my left eye. The Canon P is borderline for me at 1:1 with 50mm.

 

[Norkusa]

Mystery solved! Turns out it was a different M3...checked it out in person today and he showed me an older M3 with an early serial # (70xxxx). The one pictured was sold a few weeks ago.

I think I'm buying the M2 now which is probably better for me since I already have a 35mm Summicron.