LPL 4550 XLG wall mounted + drop table, largest print possible...

[Ai Print]

I am going to wall mount one of my LPL 4550 XLG enlargers in order to use it with a custom built drop table for large prints.

My ceiling is 7.5 feet so it is not out of the question to even use a hybrid floor easel in order to maximize magnification. While I could print 35mm negs large ( 50mm Rodagon G ) I will mostly be interested in going big with 6x6 and 4x5 negs ( 105 Rodagon G, 150 Apo N ). Even if I knew the target for 40" wide it would help a lot.

This is really hard thing to do a search on, I think I even asked it a few years ago but came up with zip this time.

 

[Mick Fagan]

There is a limit on image size with any straight columned enlarger, as opposed to either an angled column enlarger or one with an extension that places the enlarger head further out from the column towards the operator.

The LPL7452 enlarger already incorporates an extension of 50mm outwards, which made a considerable difference to possible full frame enlargements.

Previously I owned an LPL7700, then the original LPL7450 enlarger and used for a reasonable time the LPL7452 with the forward extension. In all cases the bottom of the column, or indeed the wall can impinge slightly on image area, not always, but it is something you should be aware of.

I wall mounted my 7700 and 7450 enlargers and built a drop table which worked wonderfully. From memory the standard maximum enlargement on the original 7450 was 16X for 35mm film, whereas the 7452 had a maximum of 21X for 35mm film. Both of these were full frame enlargements.

I will concede that by wall mounting you can arrive at greater enlargement factors, but eventually you will end up hitting the wall.

My memory is telling me that I was able to do a full frame 35mm enlargement of 25X before I hit the wall.

Using the LPL7452 enlarger wall mounted in a darkroom where the ceiling height was around 2.4m, the head was about 150mm from the ceiling, with the drop table about 200mm from the floor when the image hit the wall, give or take. 4x5 enlargements would probably be a close call around the same head extension and drop table.

I just went into my darkroom to conduct an experiment with my De Vere 504 with my 150 Componon S lens fitted and the 4x5" negative holder in place. The maximum height I can get the lens from the floor and focused on the floor, was 1900mm. Image size was 1300mm wide by about 1010mm. I say about as there was a bit of fiddling required to get a correct image size. Regardless, the image was cut on the long side by the enlarger column.

The drop table on my De Vere does go down about another 200mm, but I didn't need that to get a focused image on the floor. Just a quickie image from my little Android phone.

If you look at the wall in the background, you will see two light brown pieces of MDF attached to the wall, these are the wall mounts that took the LPL wall mount kits last century.

Mick.

 

[tedr1]

Here is a method of estimating image size using the negative diagonal and the lens focal length to calculate approximate image size. The result is not very accurate because the calculation assumes the lens to negative distance is the nominal focal length, which is only approximately true for big enlargements, however the result is in the right ball park for estimating the physical layout of the enlarger and baseboard. I think the reasoning is correct, if I am in error please forgive it!

6x6 with 105mm: the image size at 105mm below the lens is about 80mm diagonal (the same as the negative) converting to feet and inches we have an image 3in diagonal at a distance 4in from the lens. Moving to a distance double the focal length, to 8in, the image diagonal is 6in. Double again 16in gives 12in image diagonal. Double again 32in gives 24in image diagonal. Double again 64in distance gives 48in image diagonal. Double again 128in distance gives 96in image diagonal, which probably doesn't work given the ceiling height. These numbers can be subdivided to get results for in-between values, for example the midpoint between distance 32in and 64in is 48in and this gives a 32in diagonal.

4x5 with 150mm: the image diagonal at 150mm below the lens is 135mm, converting to inches we get 6in distance and 5in diagonal. At double the distance from the lens we get 12in distance and 10in image diagonal. Double again 24in distance and 20in diagonal. Double again 48in distance and 40in diagonal.

Using shorter lenses will increase the image size in proportion. The standard lens for 6x6 is 75 or 80mm (the diagonal) this will give an image size about 30% larger than using a 105mm lens at the same distance.. The standard lens for 4x5 is 135mm, this will give an image size about 10% larger than 150mm at the same distance.

Of course there is another restriction, the distance from lens center to the column, which is 14in. The column is about 4in thick, so at distances below the bottom of the column the wall is 18in from the lens center. This places a limit on the maximum paper size. If heroic measures were taken to mount the column spaced away from the wall the 18in limit might be increased further perhaps to 20in?

 

[Ian Grant]

I bench mounted a Johnson V45 enlarger in my old darkroom, the back of the bench top was fixed so the column was further from the wall compared to wall mounting, there was also a Durst M601/M605 mounted alongside, both mounted about 1 foot from the wall. By doing this I minimised the wall being a limiting factor and the rest of the bench top was removable effectively a drop table with 4 or 5 positions one just off the floor.

I always used a 135mm Componon so gained greater enlargement compared to a 150mm. My guess is you'll be limited to around 30x40 inches.

Ian

 

[Ai Print]

Excellent guys, it looks like for the most part I should be able to at least hit the target mark of 30x40 in most cases with my enlarger lenses that excel at these sizes.

I do plan to fabricate a wall mounting that will put the enlarger column further away from the wall and have built in provisions for alignment along two axis.

I'll certainly be playing with it a lot more once I get the space nailed down.

 

[tedr1]

30x40in, nice

I checked the wall brackets that came with my 4550XLG and they stand the column off the wall by about 2.5in which is a big help, I think this pushes the max paper size up to about 41in (before border). To get larger than that requires increasing the amount of the stand-off between the brackets and the wall.

 

[tedr1]

AiP after having some doubts about my "quick and dirty" arithmetic I checked at the enlarger to get reliable figures. They are different, not hugely different but significant.

6x6 with 105 projects an image having diagonal 20in at a distance of about 28in below the lens. The dimensions scale simply as before, so at 56in below the lens the image diagonal is about 40in.

4x5 with 135 (I don't have 150, it will be smaller by about 10%) projects an image having diagonal 20in at a distance below the lens of about 23in. Scaling two times gives 40in diagonal at 46in distance.

I trust these figures and recommend that your plans use them and not the first set of numbers I gave which were very quick and dirty.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I see the Op has 7 1/2 ft to work with, I have that as well in my current darkroom and its a pain in the ass. OP must be exact to position the enlarger to maximize this, even with a drop table .
I can get 30 x40 with the positioning I have for all formats, but just barely, and I mean just barely.

Anyway of cutting hole to allow the head to go up would be a blessing.

 

[MattKing]

Anyway of cutting hole to allow the head to go up would be a blessing.

If the position of the column is a problem, you may need to have the column higher, and the head lower on the column.

 

[Ai Print]

Anyway of cutting hole to allow the head to go up would be a blessing.

Possibly but this being a code centric commercial building, I bet the chances of running into a floor joist in the ceiling would be pretty good given the size of the head on a 4550, so I could live with just barely I guess.

The other option would be to find a cheap 4500II and convert it to horizontal in the basement. I would then have to put the paper in a light tight tube and bring it back up to the wet side darkroom for processing. I have a CB7 head and a 45M I could do that with too but then the method of contrast filtration and light source in use becomes a different animal than my pair of VCCE LPL's.

 

[MattKing]

The other option would be to find a cheap 4500II and convert it to horizontal in the basement.

Or you could take the cheap 4500II, take off the head and hang the head from the ceiling.

Then you would just need to move the easel up and down to change magnification.

 

[Ai Print]

Or you could take the cheap 4500II, take off the head and hang the head from the ceiling.

Then you would just need to move the easel up and down to change magnification.

I wonder if there would be a way to move the head out a bit more from the column with a spacer?

If I go over 30x40 I don't think it would be more than 40x50, in fact maybe I should cap it at 30x40 until I really *need* to go bigger, god knows the paper handling would be a task with 30x40 alone.

Either way, once I get in the space I will do some projecting, measuring deciding and fabricating...

 

[tedr1]

I have studied the assembly of the 45XX head and carriage. I think the major difference between the heads of the 4500 and the 4550 is the column to lens distance due to the presence of the 2in spacer added to the carriage of the 4550. Dismantling the head and carriage to remove/add/modify the spacer is not a trivial task, service access is very limited, realigning things afterwards would be tricky. My reason for studying it was head alignment and I concluded I was not going to mess with the head+carriage assembly and rather find another way of getting things aligned. You may be a better mechanic than me

PS you may have already considered this, the LPL carriage is reversible on the column, this means the baseboard can be clamped to a bench and the head reversed to hang over the back, for projection onto the floor. Not an ideal method if the project is for every-day operation, but perhaps workable for occasional printing sessions?

 

[Ai Print]

In figuring all this out it looks like I will be able to do at least 30x40 and if I decide to make a horizontal enlarger in the basement, I can go as large as a size a paper I can process. Thanks everyone, now currently researching processing of large paper.

 

[Bob Carnie]

If space is a concern a rather unique work around could be done with some effort and a lot of skills

Have a local plastic welder make three large slots - lets say 44 wide, by 36 deep by 8 - put them together, at the bottom have them put a drain,
Insert a nitrogen burst system .
This is actually what I started with in college- a Calumet nitrogen burst system, with hangers and weights you could transfer large clipped paper from Dev Stop and Fix. you could then make a much wider one for wash water that could hold up to 10 large print at a time.

I have always thought about making a washer for my large prints with this design.

It would save one tons of space and for the OP would allow large prints , actually done in a very beautiful way.
Any frame shop in the world can make largish screens that can be stacked on top of each other with a chunk of 2 x4 to give air space.

just sayin

 

[Ai Print]

Totally appreciate the input Bob and it speaks to my sensibilities in seeing a way forward with all this. I'm pretty confident I can do 30" x 40" at the very least and that is a a pretty popular size print in my parts.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Ok if you are serious and like where I am going then here are some things to consider.

So space is my overall issue whenever I am designing a darkroom- second is air control temp and humidity, third is height of the ceiling, if not high then I have to consider horizontal.
Drying setup is crucial and a way of pressing or mounting the print is required. Stacking racks is easy , if you go on my website bobcarnieprintmaking.ca you will see a boring movie I made where
you can see my mural setup and drying racks.


SET UP A: If I have space - 1200 sq ft then I can work with a sink and tray and just make them oversize.
If I have less then I either 1. forget about making high quality silver gelatin murals
or 2. come up with a second idea.

SET UP B: What I proposed for post #15 was thinking you do not have 1000 sq ft to work with but less.

I love this site and others but when I hear of all the crazy setups and ideas about making murals , my eyes roll up and conclude the posters do not know what they are talking about and talking out of their respective asses, or they really have low standards of what the print should look like.

I am designing a darkroom for when my lease comes up at this location and I get my own building.

I will go with SET UP A for space but I will certainly consider my post #15 as a possible way of maximizing Mural Prints.
Big prints done correctly can be breathtaking, there is a dude here who is doing 4ft x8ft prints and using a good setup, I have never seen his prints but if done right as I suspect
they would be incredible.

Big prints done wrong are ugly , and not worth the expense and effort to make them. Just because they are big,,,, well you know the rest.

If 30 x40 is your desire then take my advice and do not compromise your setup or equipment, you will just be pissing away your hard earned dollars.

 

[Ai Print]

If 30 x40 is your desire then take my advice and do not compromise your setup or equipment, you will just be pissing away your hard earned dollars.

Yep, that is really it in a nutshell...
While I think I could go larger if perhaps using a device like this, 30"x40" is pretty doable as it stands right now. I may still dabble in the larger sizes and call those experimental...