Low Serial Number, no Brand Name RDA?

[Richard K.]

I have a shutter mounted (may have been barrel originally) 24" Red Dot Artar with serial number 045. All it says on the lens is " APOCHROMAT ARTAR 24 IN. F:11 NO.045 "with no mention of Goerz or Schneider. The lens is superb but why no mention of manufacturer and why the really low serial number? Any insights appreciated! I'll be listing it on the Bay soon as I don't really need it.

 

[David Lindquist]

I have a shutter mounted (may have been barrel originally) 24" Red Dot Artar with serial number 045. All it says on the lens is " APOCHROMAT ARTAR 24 IN. F:11 NO.045 "with no mention of Goerz or Schneider. The lens is superb but why no mention of manufacturer and why the really low serial number? Any insights appreciated! I'll be listing it on the Bay soon as I don't really need it.

I hesitate to speak with great certainty here, and some of this is going to be speculation, but anyway I have in my collection of Goerz ephemera, ebay listings section (it's not really that well organized), a 2001 listing of a 19 inch Red Dot Artar with a serial number of 106. It's mounted in what I call a "late style" Ilex No. 4 Acme Synchro Shutter. These shutters differ from the earlier Ilex shutters in that the shutter speed dial serrations are about 1/16" wide and square bottomed with the intervening portions being about 1/8 inch wide instead of those really fine tooth things on the earlier Ilexes that sort of make the shutter speed dial look like a really fine toothed gear. Additionally in the "new style" Ilex, the Ilex logo is the word "Ilex" in a diamond, in the older shutters the diamond is further circumscribed by a rectangle. Further the type faces used for the letters on the two styles differ one from the other. No way to be certain, but it does look like this lens was originally mounted in this shutter, that is the aperture scale is neatly engraved on the shutters front cover, and doesn't look like any after market machined fittings were used to mate the lens to the shutter.

The seller of this lens described it as a "Schneider Red Dot" However the front of the lens is engraved "APOCHROMAT (intervening red dot) ARTAR 19 IN F:11 NO.106" As with yours, there is no maker's name. Maybe this 19 in Artar was marked Schneider on the back (seller only showed one view of the front), or he assumed it was Schneider from its apparent relative newness or maybe he had some additional information he was basing this on.

Is your 24 inch RDA in a No. 5 Ilex shutter (the standard shutter for this focal length RDA) Does it fit my description of a "late style" Ilex?

I can only guess as to why the low (3 digit) serial numbers and the lack of a maker's name, but at least I've offered an additional example. One guess here is possibly these lenses were made during the transition between Goerz being owned by Kollmorgen and the acquisition of the Goerz line by Schneider Corporation of America (or shortly after SCA acquired the line) and a maker's name and serial number series hadn't been finalized yet. I would like to know for sure if production of Gold Dot Dagors, Red Dot Artars etc. continued in the U.S. for a while after the acquisition by SCA, and if so, for how long?

Hope this helps and I haven't rambled on too long. I've always been something of a Goerz freak.
David

 

[Richard K.]

Thanks for your interesting reply, David. My lens is in a #3 Copal and no Schneider name on back either! I thought I remember reading that such (nameless) lenses may have been government issue?

 

[David Lindquist]

Thanks for your interesting reply, David. My lens is in a #3 Copal and no Schneider name on back either! I thought I remember reading that such (nameless) lenses may have been government issue?

Maybe your lens was originally in a barrel mount and later mounted in the No. 3 Copal. My Schneider literature indicates the 24 inch (later described as 610mm) Red Dot Artar was mounted in a number 5 shutter. I don't have any Schneider literature showing it available in a No. 3 Copal, but my Schneider literature collection is not that comprehensive. I don't know when Ilex shutter production stopped and when that large a shutter was no longer available. What's the maximum aperture shown on your Copal No. 3 aperture scale? I ask because on the S.K. Grimes website they comment that when they mount a 24 inch Artar in a No. 3 Copal it misses the maximum aperture by 1/3 stop which would make the maximum aperture possible f/12.5 vs. f/11.

I would certainly welcome anyone else out there illuminating any of this.
David

 

[Richard K.]

The maximum aperture shown on the scale is f/11 but the indicator lever doesn't quite go back to that mark, stopping part way to f/16. The scale is incidently engraved on the shutter not on a secured metal strip...

 

[Gaston 012]

@D Linquist:

I read with great interest your statement above regarding a lens, Red Dot, with a serial # of 045. Labeled just Apochromat Artar with thr=e customary red dot.
I am looking at another 24 inch, similarly engraved with a serial # of 015!
It is single coated and mounted on an Ilex #5.
Have you found more info on this little mystery since the post above?

 

[shutterfinger]

According to A Lens Collectors Vade Mecum the Artar is only listed under CP Goerz Berlin and CP Goerz, American Optical Company with the Red Dot Artar by The American Optical Company only.


I speculate that the aperture scale on your shutter is not correct for the lens.

 

[Gaston 012]

@shutterfinger
Thanks a lot for the info.
It still does not answer the question as to the origin of this two lenses.
They are obviously true Artars, I doubt the Chinese are capable of building something like this or, if they can, to go to the trouble to do it for an item that has very limited sales potential in todays Photo market.
Could they be prototypes by Schneider or the Swiss builder?
I have never seen a 3 number serial number on a lens.
Let us know if you have more info.

 

[David Lindquist]

@D Linquist:

I read with great interest your statement above regarding a lens, Red Dot, with a serial # of 045. Labeled just Apochromat Artar with thr=e customary red dot.
I am looking at another 24 inch, similarly engraved with a serial # of 015!
It is single coated and mounted on an Ilex #5.
Have you found more info on this little mystery since the post above?

First of all I have no doubt that the 24" RDA, s/n 015 that you are looking at is "genuine". BTW that shutter is what I referred to as "new style" or "late style", coming out in the 1970's.

Since this thread was started my notes have grown to include 13 Red Dot Artars with three digit serial numbers. With one exception, s/n 104, the first digit is "0". All are marked on the bezel "Apochromat (red dot) Artar" plus the serial number but no maker. (On edit, to clarify, also included on bezel is focal length and maximum aperture.)

None are marked with a country of origin with three exceptions. These three exceptions were a 30, a 35 and a 42 inch which were marked on the barrel "Made in USA" along with "Schneider Corp. of America." Also an 8 ¼ inch Artar with the serial number 025 had its box marked Schneider Corporation of America. This suggests to me that the three digit serial numbers were a post-acquisition by S.C.A. thing and we can see that three examples were explicitly made in the US.

It looks like each Artar model, i.e. focal length, may have gotten its own three digit serial number sequence as my notes show in addition to the 24 inch lens, s/n 015, a 4 inch Artar, s/n 015.

Also my notes show three Artars marked on the bezel "Schneider (red dot) Artar" but not "Apo" or "Apochromat". Serial numbers are 2000514, 516 and 519. All are marked "Made in Switzerland" and the focal length is 12 inches (not 300 mm!). Ultimately Schneider began making these in Germany and labeled them Apo Artar, serial numbers in the range of 13,xxx,xxx - 14,xxx,xxx. From my Schneider literature it looks like as soon as they acquired the Artar name they dropped their Repro Claron line of dialyte formula process lenses.

Two other things I think worth mentioning: The Goerz Apochromat Artar became the Red Dot Artar in 1953, see my post #10 here: https://www.largeformatphotography....ferences-on-the-meanings-of-colored-lens-dots The C.P. Goerz American Optical Co. became the Goerz Optical Company, Inc in 1964. Kerry Thalman posted this on this forum in November 2008, based on two pieces of Goerz literature from early and late 1964, one using the former name and one using the latter name.

Finally and once more the "Am. Opt. Co." following "C.P. Goerz" on lenses so marked has and had no connection with the American Optical Company, makers today of sun glasses.

David

 

[shutterfinger]

The relevant info from the Vade Mecum. It is based on what was available in the UK and not an absolute authority.

 

[Gaston 012]

Great explanation, this solves the "mystery" as far as I am concerned.
In any event, I decided, for other reasons, not to get the lens.
Thank you for taking the time to clarify all this.

 

[David Lindquist]

One more data point just seen on eBay, s/n 004, a 19 inch. Bezel marked as described above. Barrel mounted, on front barrel Schneider Corp. of America and Made in U.S.A. The 35 inch RDA I mention above also has serial number 004. Egad isn't this fascinating?

David