Lots of newbie Pt/pd and Epson 3880 negative questions

[dafy]

Hi guys, first post here but it seems like the most appropriate forum given my questions.

I want to get into Pt/pd printing at home, and I’ve read a lot lately. Obviously there’s a lot of knowledge out there, and a lot of trial and error will be required. But I’d like to muse a bit here and ask some questions as it will take me a couple of months to get all the equipment for financial reasons, so I may as well take this time to properly prepare. So here goes:

1) Contact Printing Frame: I think it makes sense initially to start with 8x10 prints or even smaller, as I’m learning, because of the costs of supplies, but I am certain I will go to 17x22 (or thereabouts) digital negs the moment I’m confident (I like big prints). Having said that, Can I just buy a larger contact printing frame from Bostick-Sullivan, say the 20x24 rather than the 11x14? Can I make smaller prints with the 20x24? I’d rather not have to buy both, for financial reasons, but if it’s the only way, then of course I’ll start with the 11x14 frame to do 8x10 and smaller prints. Because of my location, living in a very thin-walled house with people below me, a vacuum frame is unfortunately out of the question (not to mention cost prohibitive at this point).

2) Exposure Light: B-S sells 13 watt Compact Fluorescent UV bulbs, and I like the idea of daisy-chaining a bunch of them for a light source (again, cheaper than a dedicated UV exposure box). If I chain say 8-12 of them together for a 17x22” print on 20x24” paper, would that be enough? 4-6” away from the print, am I looking at decent times (minutes) or am I looking at hours for an exposure?

3) Types of prints I want: I have a few types of prints that I want to accomplish, some of which I’ve seen and know are doable (Pt on waterpaper with gum over; Pt on vellum with leaf behind the vellum, then mounted on a watercolour support; and plain Pt on waterpaper, the most traditional). One Idea however, I’ve not seen and not sure it can happen. Can I do Pt on vellum and then do a gum over it? Will vellum survive?

4) Current Preparation of negs: Ideally I’d like to make positives from OHP transparencies for the smaller prints (8x10s) and actually contact print them to TMax or APX100, i.e. LF film (I can handle the darkroom details there, I think) and them print them, and for larger just use a digital neg from the OHP itself. My question right now is, in prepping as many images as I can right now while I purchase all this stuff over the next couple of months, am I correct in thinking I should be initially limiting my Photoshop curves to around Zones 3-8? Local contrast of course I’d wait till I have paper/developers etc. I suppose this will be a question for debate, and I’ve certainly simplified tremendously, but my goal right now, with no testing ability, is to get a ‘sort of close’ initial file for preparation out of all my work.

OK lots of questions, and I hope some of you don’t mind chiming in – especially if any of my thoughts are wrong or misguided.

Thanks everyone, for any advice

Shawn

 

[pschwart]

see comments inline

Hi guys, first post here but it seems like the most appropriate forum given my questions.

I want to get into Pt/pd printing at home, and Ive read a lot lately. Obviously theres a lot of knowledge out there, and a lot of trial and error will be required. But Id like to muse a bit here and ask some questions as it will take me a couple of months to get all the equipment for financial reasons, so I may as well take this time to properly prepare. So here goes:

1) Contact Printing Frame: I think it makes sense initially to start with 8x10 prints or even smaller, as Im learning, because of the costs of supplies, but I am certain I will go to 17x22 (or thereabouts) digital negs the moment Im confident (I like big prints). Having said that, Can I just buy a larger contact printing frame from Bostick-Sullivan, say the 20x24 rather than the 11x14? Can I make smaller prints with the 20x24? Id rather not have to buy both, for financial reasons, but if its the only way, then of course Ill start with the 11x14 frame to do 8x10 and smaller prints. Because of my location, living in a very thin-walled house with people below me, a vacuum frame is unfortunately out of the question (not to mention cost prohibitive at this point).

Contact print frames work fine up to 11x14, maybe a bit larger, but for anything larger than 16x20 I would definitely want a vacuum frame. A large print frame is quite expensive unless you make your own, so a vacuum may not be prohibitive.


2) Exposure Light: B-S sells 13 watt Compact Fluorescent UV bulbs, and I like the idea of daisy-chaining a bunch of them for a light source (again, cheaper than a dedicated UV exposure box). If I chain say 8-12 of them together for a 17x22 print on 20x24 paper, would that be enough? 4-6 away from the print, am I looking at decent times (minutes) or am I looking at hours for an exposure?

If you want to make large prints, I'd recommend making your own "pizza oven" unit using T8 tubes. Much less fussy, and the bulbs are very inexpensive.

3) Types of prints I want: I have a few types of prints that I want to accomplish, some of which Ive seen and know are doable (Pt on waterpaper with gum over; Pt on vellum with leaf behind the vellum, then mounted on a watercolour support; and plain Pt on waterpaper, the most traditional). One Idea however, Ive not seen and not sure it can happen. Can I do Pt on vellum and then do a gum over it? Will vellum survive?

There are lots of things called vellum If a paper works well for platinum/palladium then you should be able to do gum-over.

4) Current Preparation of negs: Ideally Id like to make positives from OHP transparencies for the smaller prints (8x10s) and actually contact print them to TMax or APX100, i.e. LF film (I can handle the darkroom details there, I think) and them print them, and for larger just use a digital neg from the OHP itself. My question right now is, in prepping as many images as I can right now while I purchase all this stuff over the next couple of months, am I correct in thinking I should be initially limiting my Photoshop curves to around Zones 3-8? Local contrast of course Id wait till I have paper/developers etc. I suppose this will be a question for debate, and Ive certainly simplified tremendously, but my goal right now, with no testing ability, is to get a sort of close initial file for preparation out of all my work.

I don't understand -- why make film negatives from OHP positives?
The correction curve required for your digital negs will depend on your printer's ink set and the method you use to build sufficient UV density to achieve paper white. Sorry, lots of testing required. Step tablets and
a reflection densitometer for reading print tests can greatly simplify your life.


OK lots of questions, and I hope some of you dont mind chiming in especially if any of my thoughts are wrong or misguided.

Thanks everyone, for any advice

Shawn

 

[dafy]

Thanks very much Philip. In response:

>Contact print frames work fine up to 11x14, maybe a bit larger, but for anything larger than 16x20 I would definitely want a vacuum frame. A large print frame is quite expensive unless you make your own, so a vacuum may not be prohibitive.

Noted. And in fact I've been reading and I think my vision of going from 8x10s to 20x24s in a period of months is probably naive. Therefore an 11x14 frame is probably perfect. I'll consider larger equipment if the time comes that I feel confident to proceed.

>If you want to make large prints, I'd recommend making your own "pizza oven" unit using T8 tubes. Much less fussy, and the bulbs are very inexpensive.

Thanks a lot I will look into building something, I just figured the tube type systems were all pre-built...

>There are lots of things called vellum If a paper works well for platinum/palladium then you should be able to do gum-over.

By vellum I mean hopefully the heaviest drafting/archival/cotton vellum. Not calf skin or something artificial. The reason for vellum is the semi-transparency so I can get silver/palladium leaf to show through from behind. re: gum with this process, I've never seen vellum anywhere near as heavy as the average waterpaper, so I'd be concerned I might tear it very easily while wet.

>I don't understand -- why make film negatives from OHP positives?

Just an ideal. Take a nice grain-free digital file and add real film character to it, rather than something in NIK or Photoshop

>The correction curve required for your digital negs will depend on your printer's ink set and the method you use to build sufficient UV density to achieve paper white. Sorry, lots of testing required. Step tablets and
a reflection densitometer for reading print tests can greatly simplify your life.

I figured my question was akin to how long is a piece of skin. I downloaded the steptablet code from I believe this site actually for Photoshop, it's 21 steps and I'm sure will do the trick. Definitely will be buying a densitometer

Thanks for your response Philip. Made my life simpler.

Shawn

 

[donbga]

Thanks very much Philip. In response:

>Contact print frames work fine up to 11x14, maybe a bit larger, but for anything larger than 16x20 I would definitely want a vacuum frame. A large print frame is quite expensive unless you make your own, so a vacuum may not be prohibitive.

Noted. And in fact I've been reading and I think my vision of going from 8x10s to 20x24s in a period of months is probably naive. Therefore an 11x14 frame is probably perfect. I'll consider larger equipment if the time comes that I feel confident to proceed.

>If you want to make large prints, I'd recommend making your own "pizza oven" unit using T8 tubes. Much less fussy, and the bulbs are very inexpensive.

Thanks a lot I will look into building something, I just figured the tube type systems were all pre-built...

>There are lots of things called vellum If a paper works well for platinum/palladium then you should be able to do gum-over.

By vellum I mean hopefully the heaviest drafting/archival/cotton vellum. Not calf skin or something artificial. The reason for vellum is the semi-transparency so I can get silver/palladium leaf to show through from behind. re: gum with this process, I've never seen vellum anywhere near as heavy as the average waterpaper, so I'd be concerned I might tear it very easily while wet.

>I don't understand -- why make film negatives from OHP positives?

Just an ideal. Take a nice grain-free digital file and add real film character to it, rather than something in NIK or Photoshop

>The correction curve required for your digital negs will depend on your printer's ink set and the method you use to build sufficient UV density to achieve paper white. Sorry, lots of testing required. Step tablets and
a reflection densitometer for reading print tests can greatly simplify your life.

I figured my question was akin to how long is a piece of skin. I downloaded the steptablet code from I believe this site actually for Photoshop, it's 21 steps and I'm sure will do the trick. Definitely will be buying a densitometer

Thanks for your response Philip. Made my life simpler.

Shawn

Hi Shawn,

The step tablet that Phil refers to isn't a digital step tablet that you print on your printer. Instead it's specially made step tablet made on film. The Stouffers 3110 is highly recommended.

http://www.stouffer.net/TransPage.htm

Don

 

[dafy]

Thanks Don. In this case can film mean negative inkjet transparency? Or would it only be useful with actual film?

I can probably answer that myself if I click on the link LOL.

And I think I'll need to pull out AA's Trilogy again to get the cobwebs out of my brain...assuming the pages aren't crusted with chemicals

 

[donbga]

Thanks Don. In this case can film mean negative inkjet transparency? Or would it only be useful with actual film?

I can probably answer that myself if I click on the link LOL.

And I think I'll need to pull out AA's Trilogy again to get the cobwebs out of my brain...assuming the pages aren't crusted with chemicals

For the Stouffers transmissive step wedge we mean actual film. You just order a couple from them to do the calibration of your ink jet substrate for the minimum exposure time and to determine the actual log density range of a specific process or process mixture.

The digital step tablet is printed on the OHP substrate with your printer and then can be printed with the process you need to linearize. Typically these step tablets have 100 or 101 discrete steps. In order for each step to be discernable on the print an adjustment curve is derived and applied in Photoshop.

Don

 

[dafy]

Thanks Don

Another question, possibly only I can answer but opinions would be good.

Buying in to this process is going to cost a bit, so in the meantime, do you think it is worth it for me to 'fake it' in hopes of developing a few techniques that will pass over into Pt/pd+vellum or waterpaper? In other words, is there any valid experience to be gained by making images with my Epson 3880 directly onto vellum and developing a technique for the leafing on the back, exposure techniques for the vellum, etc. or is this just money I should save to get into the real process itself? I think, personally, my money would be better served to just save for the real Pt/pd deal, even if it means waiting and not doing any printing/burning cash for a couple of months.

Having said that, if you think there are valid (economic/experiential) reasons to 'fake it' first, I'd like to hear. If some techniques are better learned on cheap ink and fake leaf etc. as opposed to expensive palladium and real leaf, even if the prints are just tests, I'll experiment a bit. I've done a few waxed inkjet+vellum+silver leaf+waterpaper prints, enough to know that I like the look and will only benefit greatly from platinum and palladium in the end (a real, and beautiful print!)...so should I keep wasting money or stop printing for now and save my money for the real deal?

I think only I can answer that, make a decision, but any opinions/experience would be appreciated

Shawn

 

[pschwart]

Thanks Don

Another question, possibly only I can answer but opinions would be good.

Buying in to this process is going to cost a bit, so in the meantime, do you think it is worth it for me to 'fake it' in hopes of developing a few techniques that will pass over into Pt/pd+vellum or waterpaper? In other words, is there any valid experience to be gained by making images with my Epson 3880 directly onto vellum and developing a technique for the leafing on the back, exposure techniques for the vellum, etc. or is this just money I should save to get into the real process itself? I think, personally, my money would be better served to just save for the real Pt/pd deal, even if it means waiting and not doing any printing/burning cash for a couple of months.

Having said that, if you think there are valid (economic/experiential) reasons to 'fake it' first, I'd like to hear. If some techniques are better learned on cheap ink and fake leaf etc. as opposed to expensive palladium and real leaf, even if the prints are just tests, I'll experiment a bit. I've done a few waxed inkjet+vellum+silver leaf+waterpaper prints, enough to know that I like the look and will only benefit greatly from platinum and palladium in the end (a real, and beautiful print!)...so should I keep wasting money or stop printing for now and save my money for the real deal?

I think only I can answer that, make a decision, but any opinions/experience would be appreciated

Shawn

My own opinion is that you might as well take the plunge and start gaining experience with making handcoated prints. Why not consider just making 4x5 or 5x7 prints to start, or maybe using a less expensive process like vandyke?

 

[dafy]

My own opinion is that you might as well take the plunge and start gaining experience with making handcoated prints. Why not consider just making 4x5 or 5x7 prints to start, or maybe using a less expensive process like vandyke?

Thanks Philip

I tend to agree I should probably just wait for supplies. I was a silver darkroom guy for over a decade and for some reason these days digital is just not doing it for me. I've always loved platinum prints, especially of say Irving Penn as an example, so in the beginning I'll start with palladium but I really prefer the tone of platinum and platinum+palladium. So I'd rather just stick with that I think...work directly towards the goal.

Bt let's see I my wallet agrees after the first few months of learning

I suspect the biggest challenge will be getting used to the fragility of the paper (especially with vellum which is much thinner than fiber printing paper) and applying the solution to the paper in the frst place. I'm looking forward to the peace and frustration of developing a process

 

[PVia]

Definitely go for the real thing...however, you may want to experiment with a less expensive process just to get coating, etc together, or you can practice coating with inexpensive FO only (no metal salt).

You're right, there's a huge learning curve ahead of you. Digital negs alone will be enough to tear your hair out. Take extremely good notes, keep every piece of paper you expose with notes on the back. You will need these references a year or two down the line, when something jumps on you, like paper fabrication.

Good luck and leave plenty of time. This is something that definitely will not happen in a few weeks or months...you have to be committed.

(A workshop can really help jumpstart the process...)

 

[pschwart]

Thanks Philip

I tend to agree I should probably just wait for supplies. I was a silver darkroom guy for over a decade and for some reason these days digital is just not doing it for me. I've always loved platinum prints, especially of say Irving Penn as an example, so in the beginning I'll start with palladium but I really prefer the tone of platinum and platinum+palladium. So I'd rather just stick with that I think...work directly towards the goal.

Bt let's see I my wallet agrees after the first few months of learning

I suspect the biggest challenge will be getting used to the fragility of the paper (especially with vellum which is much thinner than fiber printing paper) and applying the solution to the paper in the frst place. I'm looking forward to the peace and frustration of developing a process

Do you have a specific paper in mind?

 

[dafy]

Thanks PVia. I'm looking to develop something over years, that's for sure. Excuse the stupidity but what is FO?

My understanding is that in Toronto (where I live) there are a lot of platinum guys, so finding a workshop shouldn't be that hard and it's a great idea.

Philip-I'm not sure what paper. Less surface texture would be good. And for vellum prints, thick and translucent. I regularly use epson velvet fine art strictly for its archival properties, but its texture is off-putting with anything except low key images, but that's just me.

If it means anything, I used to love Ilford warmtone paper, developed with a cool developer and slightly selenium toned. But my vision is a bit different now; want very cool grey and a smoothe surface such that the image itself is the texture. I just borrowed a Minolta 5400ii I believe it's called so I have about 10,000 pre-digital negs to go through, largely PMK pyro and Techpan but lots of APX100+Rodinal shots too

Definitely go for the real thing...however, you may want to experiment with a less expensive process just to get coating, etc together, or you can practice coating with inexpensive FO only (no metal salt).

You're right, there's a huge learning curve ahead of you. Digital negs alone will be enough to tear your hair out. Take extremely good notes, keep every piece of paper you expose with notes on the back. You will need these references a year or two down the line, when something jumps on you, like paper fabrication.

Good luck and leave plenty of time. This is something that definitely will not happen in a few weeks or months...you have to be committed.

(A workshop can really help jumpstart the process...)

 

[PVia]

FO = ferric oxalate

 

[dafy]

FO = ferric oxalate

Ah, right. So I can make an actual print without the salt(s) or you are saying I can get as far as developing a technique for applying the materials to paper, but won't be able to expose it, ie it's just to learn how to apply the materials in a less costly manner?

 

[donbga]

it's just to learn how to apply the materials in a less costly manner?

You could just as well use water with green food coloring. Much less expensive than FO and non-toxic.

Don

 

[dafy]

Haha. Nah, I'm going to start with a Pt/pd kit...may as well start bashing out the occasional 'for me' print to at least feel the excitement, even if I pee a lot of money down the drain in the beginning lol...

What the heck, carpe diem

 

[jeffreyg]

My advice for what it is worth--- walk before you run. If you will be starting out coating with pt/pd try a few photograms first. You can keep them small so as not to waste what will become expensive materials (check the current metals market). Then move to 4x5 negatives to learn what negative density and contrast works for you. Once you have a workable system go larger.

Consider Dan Burkholder's plug-in for making digital negatives. There are others as well but his is very simple and easy to tweek.

Once you are comfortable making pt/pd prints try your other aspirations. You will pt/pd printing to be rewarding but not without a learning curve.

Have fun.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

 

[dafy]

Thanks Jeffrey. Great advice. I could even start (while learning to make the digital negs) on some indeed small images, ie work from negatives from my MF (6x7) days - largely PMK Pyro+Tech Pan, and Rodinal with various normal emulsions, lots of APX. That would get me the basics of coating paper (at a small size). At the same time work on learning/making larger (say 5x7 or even 4x5 as you say) digital negs, and when I'm at that level, confident, I can start to go for full-sized 8x10s or so. I suspect larger than that will be years down the road, because of technical considerations AND cost (equipment).

I'm not too concerned with the price of platinum right now, it's only $49,000USD/Kg. Cheap

I think what I should do is, once ordering a basic kit, I should sit on it, find a 1-2 day hands-on seminar (or mentor under someone local for a time), and then begin my own work at home...

Shawn

ps thanks for mentioning Dan Burkholder, just went to his site. I originally saw vellum+leaf+Pt/pd on his site but I lost it and didn't remember his name. Thanks!

My advice for what it is worth--- walk before you run. If you will be starting out coating with pt/pd try a few photograms first. You can keep them small so as not to waste what will become expensive materials (check the current metals market). Then move to 4x5 negatives to learn what negative density and contrast works for you. Once you have a workable system go larger.

Consider Dan Burkholder's plug-in for making digital negatives. There are others as well but his is very simple and easy to tweek.

Once you are comfortable making pt/pd prints try your other aspirations. You will pt/pd printing to be rewarding but not without a learning curve.

Have fun.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/