Loss of fine art photography tradition

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AgX

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As a teacher at a photo department at an art academy I would be much, much more concerned about the knowledge of general history of my students than that of history of art or the evolution of the photographic image.

To me art is about the relation between the individual and his environment. The understanding of, the ability to look at this environment is more important than the knowledge of the evolution within arts, which rather makes art selfcentered.
 

mark

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mark,

Are you politely trying to say I am a grumpy old fart, worried about nothing?

HARRUMPH!

(I hope you're right.)

I was called a grumpy old fart today. How about we go gum a sandwich into submission and complain about the youth.
 

BainDarret

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I too put the these photographers in their historical and social context.
It's not just about technique. I give them an idea, as best I can, of the temper of the times these photographers worked in.


I would disagree with this in part, as the technical effort put into a shot, in the form of a wet plate or a digital snap is only important from a fine art context, or painterly view. What makes some of the shots taken by these photographers is the historical and social context. My younger students appreciate pictures by Weegee when I explain the photograph in context of the situation, or HCB in terms of MO to get the shot.
 

pdeeh

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I've seen some of these young people, you know:
They seem to have the most outlandish haircuts, and I've even seen some of the females wearing trousers and smoking in the street.
What's more, they cheek their elders.
 

BainDarret

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Yeah, that was me and my friends 40 years ago.
Funny though, I knew who Atget and Cartier Bresson (among others) were.
I guess I had an interest in photography, at the time.


I've seen some of these young people, you know:
They seem to have the most outlandish haircuts, and I've even seen some of the females wearing trousers and smoking in the street.
What's more, they cheek their elders.
 

GregW

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They want to make art, good. Stomping on the past, fine. Rural Texas has a good record in this regard, Rauschenberg and others. His erasing a DeKooning, Brilliant. This worrying about history is not new. The academy was worried too when the likes of Picasso and Duchamp showed up. Adams and Weston won't be forgotten because young upstarts don't care about them. BTW their interest in printing on new materials has antecedents too. Maybe not Steichen et al but Perhaps Man Ray or Maholy Nagy.
 

Maris

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What I believe I am seeing is a near total abandonment of photographic tradition and history among new photographers, who of course work digitally (in large part). This concerns me greatly. Without tradition and history, the future is bleak.
The reason why contemporary picture-makers working in a digital environment don't care about photographic tradition and history is that they are not part of it.

The technical and aesthetic considerations invoked when generating pictures from electronic files are not the same as those that prompt the production of photographs: physical art-objects made out of light sensitive materials. Digipix can be made to resemble any process in any medium and for the time being many are regularly made to resemble photographs. Perhaps this is because the digital world has not evolved a secure aesthetic of its own. Or maybe photography is such a powerful exemplar that the digi-worker can't conceive of what a good picture should look like save that it should look like a photograph. Or is it a plain case of imitation amounting to flattery?

If you will allow that "different" is not "the same", that "looks like" doesn't mean "same as", and merely "saying so" is insufficient to "make it so", then I insist that digital picture-making is not photography at all. And it's about time that digipix accumulated their own tradition and history instead of cadging a free ride from photography.
 

removed account4

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hi david

i see where you are coming from.

as a student of art and architecture, former gallery owner, i don't think it is important that someone knows the "roots"
that you think are important. i understand why you are upset because the folks you have
canonized aren't seen as important in the newer "wannabes" .
to be honest a lot of the people who have been canonized as fine art photographers aren't really important to me either ...
i know about people, artists, painters, architects &c who are important to me, and while i know who some of the others are
i haven't made it a rule to "know" them. it isn't hard to see their influence though, 90-95% of the photographers
who claim to be "fine art photographers" seem to be copyists ... copying the style of their favorite early photographer ...
they really aren't doing much new, or growing at all, just searching for tripod holes ...

as for archival method and digital image making, well, the field is wide open ... there is no such thing
as an arcival digital ink print, or file, unless it was an internegative and an arcane process was created in the end.
i don't really care what wilhelm suggests are archival because they really aren't, just ask people whose work
has all turned cyan ...

john
 
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removed account4

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If you will allow that "different" is not "the same", that "looks like" doesn't mean "same as", and merely "saying so" is insufficient to "make it so", then I insist that digital picture-making is not photography at all. And it's about time that digipix accumulated their own tradition and history instead of cadging a free ride from photography.

digital image making is just as much photography as exposing film.
the sensor is sensitive to light as much or more so than film, just because you don't say it is, don't mean it's so.
in some threads, you also suggest that a photographic print isn't a photograph either. if that is so, then paper negatives
aren't photographs either, calotypes, salt prints or anything else, just negatives and diapositives / slides and polaroids and dageurreotypes,
tintypes and anything that is "first generation" ... but then again, they are sensitive to light like a slow sensor so maybe the only thing
that is actually a photograph is a shadow ...
 

Vaughn

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...
i don't really care what wilhelm suggests are archival because they really aren't, just ask people whose work
has all turned cyan ...

john

Ah! Cyanotypes! :D
 

Allen Friday

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I think with every generation there is a tendency to criticize the younger generation. My experience with my children’s generation (ages 28, 26, 21) is that they are pretty much the same as my generation. My son was an art major in college. He took art appreciation, studied the old masters and worked hard on his projects, especially his senior show. He was a pot major—pottery that is. He knew the complete history of pottery, all the major trends, the best working artists etc. He knew a few photographers from his classes, but not many. But then, he knew a lot more potters than I did.

He was dedicated to art, so he studied it and worked hard at it. At his senior show, he introduced me to a classmate who was a photographer. She had beautiful prints. The color ones were digital. The black and white ones were analogue. She had one cyanotype. We started talking about her art and her inspiration. We took a tangent and talked about her influences. I can attest she was fully aware of the history of photography.

At least the members of the younger generation in the art department at St. Olaf College know their stuff.

I think there have always been people who are truly interested in the arts, and they will study the technique and the history. There are also a lot of people who will dabble in photography or watercolor or pottery. They will not do the hard work to become really good.

The issue then is why do the young people David is meeting think they are artists?

I speculate that the barriers to declaring oneself an artist have been lessened by the new technology—especially in photography. In the past, cameras were expensive. To produce quality prints, or at least large prints, you either had to have a dark room or spend a lot of money to send out a negative to be enlarged. Today, a cheap consumer camera can match the output of many top end cameras. If you have a file, you can get it printed cheaply. Just look at the prices on Mpix for large prints. All kids have computers and cameras. (When I was growing up way back in the 70’s, only a few had 35mm SLRs.) More kids are experimenting with the medium. They don’t need the skills that we had to acquire to get over the threshold of proper exposure, the skill to print in a darkroom, etc.

I don’t know if it is a good or a bad thing. In general, the more young people that are exposed to photography, the more will rise to the top. If you have a cow that gives a quart of milk a day, you will get little cream. A cow that gives 5 gallons of milk a day, you will end up with a lot more cream.

As for printing on aluminum, I made a few tintypes last week. I didn’t use Japanned tin, I used aluminum. I’ve tried printing on etched circuit boards. I have seen some wonderful photographic works on Plexiglas, curved to reveal a secondary photo underneath. I don’t have a problem with young, or old, photographers pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable in photograph, trying new methods or pursuing a new vision. I don’t want to be stuck in the f/64 aesthetic. Some of the new work will succeed—most will be crap. But people need to experiment, play, grasp for the new, or photography will become stale. Hopefully, they will also have a good grasp of the past to guide their journey of experiment.
 

eddie

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I don't know how you can have a passion for something (or create art in a specific medium) without wanting to search out those that succeeded before you. Not necessarily to emulate, but to understand the "vocabulary" of the medium. It doesn't mean you have to like their work, but awareness is important. No one lives in a vacuum, and no one creates in one. When I'm confronted by an "artist" who says it's not important to know the history of photography, I can't help but question their commitment.

As for digital, I think it's a medium in it's infancy. It needs time to find it's place in the pantheon of the arts. Right now, I see digital as more technology driven, rather than aesthetically driven (a quick visit to any digital site will show more discussions about the hardware than the image making possibilities). I do know many people doing excellent digital work, however (with few exceptions), they all started with film/darkroom (and embraced the history, too)....
 

cliveh

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I don't know how you can have a passion for something (or create art in a specific medium) without wanting to search out those that succeeded before you. Not necessarily to emulate, but to understand the "vocabulary" of the medium. It doesn't mean you have to like their work, but awareness is important. No one lives in a vacuum, and no one creates in one. When I'm confronted by an "artist" who says it's not important to know the history of photography, I can't help but question their commitment.

How true.
 

Lee Rust

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Perhaps the medium should not be confused with the art.

The science of photography is a cumulative body of experience and technology that is best passed from generation to generation. Each successive cohort can be free to choose whichever well-honed tool they like, hopefully without too much needless reinvention of wheels.

On the other hand, the art of creating meaningful images need not always be additive. The burden of precedent can get very heavy. Innocent rediscovery is just as enlightening as diligent study. To encourage the fullest expression of creativity and genius, any education would best include both kinds of learning.

Like the saying goes, youth is often wasted on the young. It usually takes the experience of a lifetime to really open our eyes. We can only hope that our children will someday look up from their little screens to see the larger world around them.
 

Darkroom317

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I'm 23 and I notice same thing
 

DREW WILEY

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Fine Art Photography in this day and age consists of a cell phone shot of a computer web image of another cell phone shot, then enlarged forty feet wide. The best thing that could happen is if all us
who care about the medium simply erased the word "art" from our whole vocabulary. It has become such
a prostituted term that it's almost meaningless at this point, i.e., it can mean just about anything,
and is largely a marketing gimmick.
 

ntenny

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I think there have always been people who are truly interested in the arts, and they will study the technique and the history. There are also a lot of people who will dabble in photography or watercolor or pottery. They will not do the hard work to become really good.

The issue then is why do the young people David is meeting think they are artists?

I speculate that the barriers to declaring oneself an artist have been lessened by the new technology—especially in photography.

Amen to that. I think this post summarizes the dynamic almost perfectly. Of course there are and will continue to be young people who get interested in the history of an art, and many more who don't, and some who don't when they're young and come round to it later, and all that. The difference isn't, I think, that there are fewer people interested in photographic history---it's just that even the people who are uninterested have cameras!

And now, thanks to the internet, they have not only cameras but gallery walls, and plenty of people with no particular interest in or knowledge of the history of photography can nevertheless have their images seen by worldwide audiences---who, it turns out, are suckers for a colorful gimmick and little interested in extended thoughtful analysis. Plus ca change and all that.

Why, it's as if any kid who wanted to could buy one of those electrical guitars and start a band, without ever even having heard of Django Reinhardt! (And that particular artistic sea-change worked out pretty well, I think, although I suppose there are those who would argue that the rock-and-roll democratization of musicianship ruined music for all time.)

-NT
 

whowantstoast

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What a tough subject! Everybody is right, in one way or another. I was an art director working with designers and writers (before going solo), and I was constantly trying to get them to base their creativity on traditional methodologies. I wanted them to spend some real time examining work from the history of their fields, and using that knowledge to give them some solid ground for their own efforts. Most hated it, and I really didn't have much success getting them to do it. If that had consistently resulted in failed work I'd have a different attitude today, but it didn't. Why? Some of these people had real talent, and a real passion for their work. They ignored me and still shined, and I learned to manage them in a different way. They'll come around to the history someday, especially as they begin to see their place in it. I think the same can be true in photography.

We have to be careful not to be yelling, "You kids get off of my lawn!" as the next great talent walks away from us.
 
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davidkachel

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We're all 'fine art photographer wannabes' until someone in the know gives a sh*t.

Nonsense. That "someone in the know" stuff is just plain BS. I have been at this long enough to know that 99% of the so-called "experts" are just pretentious, arrogant a**holes. All most of these people do is sell dead fish, vacuum cleaners and used bathroom fixtures to incredibly gullible rich people.

If you say you are a fine art photographer, I take you at face value. I DO reserve judgement as to the quality of your work, but I have no interest in whether or not you have the stamp of approval from some high and mighty art speculation wonk. In fact, in recent years, that stamp of approval usually means your work is not so hot.
 

polyglot

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I think it's just that the physical process of photography got easier, so more people participate. You're just looking at the dilution of talent and diligence amongst greater and greater hordes of dilettantes; the quantity and quality of talent is ever increasing but you need to know where to look for it. If your basis of observation is wannabes fronting for representation, then it's going to look worse and worse.

The democratisation of photography cuts both ways: people now can easily make images that that could not have afforded or been physically able to previously, so we see a lot of interesting new art emerging - and much of that gets missed by people fixated on Weston and Adams. Conversely, tryhards who would previously have been dissuaded by the need to carry wet plates or run a darkroom are no longer dissuaded, and we need to just put up with that.

If I look back about 10 years, I was definitely one of the people you're whingeing about. Thing is, no one is born with the knowledge you expect everyone to have, especially those of us with careers outside of photography.

If you consider knowledge of past masters to be a prerequisite to making good photographs, you're effectively telling us that photography could never start. Someone, at some point, will figure out how to do something (very) good and without assistance. Given that it happened amongst the very few practitioners before there was a tradition, why on earth would you expect it not to happen now when we have an unprecedented number of people who have the physical means to create photographs?
 

Athiril

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Allen,

Sure...
They are printing on canvas and aluminum, and trying to make photographs look like paintings. Never heard of cotton rag. Have no idea what resolution or sharpness are and have no interest in pursuing it. Do not know what makes a photograph different from other art forms and therefore do not pursue those aspects.

They seem determined to make all the old mistakes all over again.

That's a very narrow way of thinking.


Sorry, but artists and art historians (and/or curators) are two completely different breed of people. Art historians/curators have no place telling artists what they should or should not be doing. It is the other way around. Artists dictate the terms of their own work, that is why they are artists, ie: creators.


No knowledge of history or previous works is necessary for someone to create their own art, sorry, this just sounds like a big lot of elitist hot air to me.
 
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