Looking for this document : Eastman Kodak Company, "Modulation transfer data for Kodak films," Kodak Pamphlet P-49, Third Edition, September 1967

[AbsurdePhoton]

Hi,

I am looking for some/more useful data for simulating old films.

I found this reference in a NASA study of films for the moon landings, 1965. It is supposed to contain the MTF curves of several Kodak B&W films. The MTF curves are what I am mostly missing from old data, so this would be invaluable for me.

I already looked intensively on the internet, but none of my sources or new ones could provide this one.

So if one of you has this precious document, I would be glad if you could make a digital copy (scan), or simply photograph the pages I am looking for (even with a mobile!). The aim is to be able to digitize the curves values.

 

[Kino]

You should PM the user @laser. He worked for Kodak and might have a copy or know of someone who has a copy.

Edit: Also, have you checked the "SPSE Handbook of Photographic Science and Engineering" (1973) to see if this data is not contained within that publication?

In addition, try contacting the George Eastman House Museum in Rochester.

 

[AbsurdePhoton]

@Kino Thanks for the info I'll try this. I just received 2 days ago the SPSE handbook, and it is BIG. I already went through it a little and found some curves and data (for Plus-X for example), but this kind of information is sparse and just illustrates the article. If there is a whole bunch of interesting data for me somewhere, I still have to find it.

 

[Todd Niccole]

If you are willing to pay for the article:

https://opg.optica.org/ao/viewmedia.cfm?uri=ao-15-5-1130&seq=0&html=true

 

[AbsurdePhoton]

@Todd Niccole this is not what I am looking for, I already consulted it. It *refers* to the document I want, without showing the original data.

 

[Molli]

I'm guessing the table at the end of the second page is more of what you've already found, a mere referral?
It's from "Optical and photographic reconnaissance systems" by Niels Jensen Publication date 1968

Optical and photographic reconnaissance systems : Jensen, Niels, 1932- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

xi, 211 pages 23 cm

archive.org

 

[AbsurdePhoton]

@Molli Nice one thank you, after work I know on which site I'll go - Internet Archive is still a bit choppy since the hackers attacks last month, but we can login again
And yes this is exactly the kind of data I need. I think I'll open another (more general) thread to share documents resources/places.

 

[Molli]

I'm glad to hear those pages added something. Yes, the Internet Archive is an invaluable resource and I was particularly upset to be notified of it being attacked. I never have enough to give, but always pop a few dollars in the kitty to support them whenever I can.
Getting back to your publication, that book was the only one I found referencing P-49. I tried the Wayback Machine to see if Kodak may have had it up online at some stage, but no luck. It took an OCR text search in the library archives to even find that book.
I really wish Kodak had done a better job of digitising/archiving their own resources. They were brilliant for educating their customers back in the day. Finding information now is a hell of a lot more haphazard; but they were good enough to create it in the beginning, so I have hope that every last bit of it still exists somewhere in the world.

 

[AbsurdePhoton]

Before asking, I already tried almost all you did, but thanks a lot for that anyway.

Yes Kodak had excellent publications, I have documents as far as 1941 with excellent technical details. You can't say the same for Ilford or other manufacturers. In this way Kodak was much more modern than the others.

Since my post here, I have sent an e-mail to the George Eastman House Museum. I don't expect much, but you never know until you try. Stay tuned

 

[Molli]

Does the Kodak Reference Handbook add anything to your project? The copy I'm looking at here is from 1946 showing Colour Sensitivity, Sensitometric Curves, Time-Temperature Development Curves, Graininess and Resolving Power...

.... you did say "old films," didn't you?

 

[AbsurdePhoton]

@Molli yes I am interested in ALL the Data Books, but I already got this one, you can find it on the Internet Archive. That's why I have to review what I already have, and post another thread.
From memory I have the 5th and 7th edition of the data books, and bits of them in another documents. The farthest I have with valid technical data from Kodak is 1941-1943. Strangely the 60s and 70s books are hard to find. For Ilford I found almost nothing before the 1980s.

 

[cmacd123]

[ For Ilford I found almost nothing before the 1980s.

not even in the various editions of "the Ilford Manual of Photography" later the Focal Manual of Photography....

 

[Kino]

Strangely the 60s and 70s books are hard to find. For Ilford I found almost nothing before the 1980s.
[/QUOTE]

Dr. C.E. Kenneth Mees, who established the Kodak Park Research Lab in 1912, died in 1960 and it appears publication volume dropped without his guiding hand.

Mees worked for Wratten and Wainwright, Ltd under Frederick Wratten and came to Kodak to establish the Kodak Park Research Lab after Eastman purchased Wratten and Wainright, but he did so under specific conditions. One being that he insisted that all non-proprietary research (absent trade secrets) would be published to the scientific World.

 

[reddesert]

I have a couple of Kodak handbooks / pamphlets on scientific use of photographic films / plates, which may or may not have these kinds of plots. Am currently away from the office but remind me in a week (tag me) and I'll look.

 

[AbsurdePhoton]

Hey, thanks @reddesert

 

[AbsurdePhoton]

I found a reference to the document in this : Index to Kodak Technical Information (L-5) - 1968

No other mention further in the indexes I have (1972, 1987) - but I have a question about these indexes : do they concern ONLY the year for they are published ? In that case it would be normal not to find other mentions in 1972 and 1987

 

[laser]

I caution you to not compare MTF curves between publications. The results are subject to calibration and technique.

 

[AbsurdePhoton]

@laser yes I am aware of that. In my software the MTF curve usage is optional, and adjustable in its effects. It just blurs or sharpens a little some parts the photo, adding to the overall impression of accuracy of the simulation.
I PMed you asking to come here, thanks So would you per chance have the document I requested ? Or an equivalent ?

 

[MarkS]

You might also contact the library at the Rochester Institute of Technology. If any academic institution would have this publication, it's likely to be them.
I've saved a fair amount of tech data from my years at Kodak, but 1967 was well before my time.

 

[AbsurdePhoton]

I've saved a fair amount of tech data from my years at Kodak, but 1967 was well before my time

Mmmh, you got my attention dear @MarkS.

Maybe this new thread would be something you could contribute to ?

 

[AbsurdePhoton]

You might also contact the library at the Rochester Institute of Technology. If any academic institution would have this publication, it's likely to be them.

Why not, I am already waiting for the George Eastman Institute to answer my request.
But I went on their website and I don't know where to address my request. The library ? The research part ? Maybe the Digitization lab.
[EDIT : I finally asked the Digitization lab]

 

[AbsurdePhoton]

The George Eastman Institute replied and sent me a copy, not exactly what I asked (2nd edition from 1962 instead of the 3rd edition) but that's fine

Thanks for the good advices, you all.

 

[Kino]

The George Eastman Institute replied and sent me a copy, not exactly what I asked (2nd edition from 1962 instead of the 3rd edition) but that's fine

Thanks for the good advices, you all.

Good. I am glad you located a copy.