Looking for some advice and opinions on my second venture into medium format

[Shooter McGavin]

Hey y'all.

First time poster, looking for some advice and opinions on my next medium format purchase. I used to own a Kiev-60 with some Zeiss Jena lenses and while it made some fantastic images every once in a while, I had to let it go for a few reasons. I know I was loading the film correctly and it frequently gave me overlapping frames. I found the meter a huge pain to use as well.

Since then I've been shooting tons of 35mm but I'm itching like a hound to start shooting medium format again. I've done a large amount of research but I'm having a hard time making a decision and sticking with it. I don't have access to these cameras to test out so I would love to hear some opinions of people who have.

I'm sure the right camera depends on what you typically shoot, so for your information I shoot mostly street photography, but also dabble in portraits, lifestyle and some long exposure stuff.

What I'm looking for in a camera...

-Affordable, I'm not trying to break the bank on a very nice camera at the moment, just one that I can have some fun with in the meantime.
-Hand-Hold-Ability? That's not a word...but as I do a lot of handheld stuff I'd like to be able to shoot at somewhat reasonable speeds without too much mirror slap or other interference.
-Weight isn't too much of a concern for me, I don't mind a heavy camera.
-Decent Metering, I shoot on the fly a lot and I really enjoy a nice in-camera meter. I'm not a fan of having to take out an external meter unless I have to.
-Mirror Lock up, it would be great to have for those locked off long exposure shots.

So after a lot of research the three cameras that have really caught my eye are the Pentax 6x7, Bronica ETR-S, and the Bronica GS-1.

Pentax 6x7

Why it's appealing to me...

Just the idea of shooting 6x7 negatives, that's a big negative, lots of information! When I first saw a picture of the Pentax 6x7 ground glass I was drooling, I instantly wanted one. They make a model with a TTL prism although I have not read about how accurate or helpful it is. There are also versions with MLU so that's a plus. Lenses seem to be pretty cheap as well. Oh and I love the SLR form factor.

Concerns...

I've read quite a few people saying that it is not a camera to use hand held, saying serious camera vibrations happen even at higher shutter speeds due to the massive mirror. No changeable backs sounds like a drag but I did deal with it with the Kiev-60, and I currently deal with it every day shooting 35mm. I bet it's super heavy but like I said earlier, I'm not really concerned about that.

I see there is also the 67 but it seems to be a decent step up in price, perhaps too much to consider. Is it any better than the 6x7?

Bronica ETR-S

Likes...

Seems like a pretty neat system. As much as I enjoy SLR cameras, the modular style ones are definitely peaking my interest. I haven't really heard anything bad about these cameras, seems like a logical, affordable camera to get back into medium format with. I read the AE II prism finder is great, has a good meter. I think I also read it gives you aperture priority which would be a neat feature to have, but not necessary. I've never had the ability to change what film I'm using right that moment without wasting the rest of the roll, so changeable backs sounds amazing. I believe they also make 220 backs and 135 backs, would be fun shooting 35mm with it as well. Who knows maybe it would become the only camera I needed. Lenses have leaf shutters which I believe reduces camera vibrations, so that's cool. Lenses are also pretty cheap.

Dislikes...

Shooting 645 is a smaller negative than I'd like, not a complete deal breaker, but it almost is... Most of the lenses appear to be much slower than the Pentax counterparts. No MLU, but not sure if it's totally necessary with this camera?

After doing a lot of research on the ETR-S I stumbled across the GS-1, which immediately jumped out at me because...

It seems to fix the big issue I have with the ETR-S, the wimpy negative size.
Same size negative as the Pentax 6x7.
Still has all the things I enjoy about the ETR-S.
Has MLU.
6x6 possible with back.

Although...

Having a hard time finding as much stuff about this camera as the ETR-S. I believe it's a different lens system, seems like it might be harder to find these lenses. Don't believe there's a 135 back.

So with all that stuff in mind, what would you get? I'd love to hear from people who have actually used them and what they worked well for.

Sorry for the stupidly long post.

Thanks in advance for any help, y'all.

 

[mweintraub]

I have both the Pentax 6x7 and ETRSi (recently got that one). Both are diffrent. Produce different results (I haven't shot both very much, though). I can weight both of them for you for comparisons.

I have a Bronica SQ-A and love that camera. If you're interested in 6x6 again, this is a great choice. I have a friend with a GS-1 and it's not that heavy. I have the RZ67 and I don't think it's very heavy or bulky for the amazing results I get from it. I love the rotating back on it so I don't have to rotate the whole camera like I would have to on the GS-1.

 

[klownshed]

If you want a modular system, don't discount the Bronica SQ-A. It has the benefits of the ETRS and also has MLU and you can get 6x6, 645 and 135 backs for it and the lenses are reasonably easy to find. Also not much bigger than the 645 and you have similar viewfinder options including a WLF which makes it relatively easy to hand hold.

You can also get a speed grip which is useful if using a prism finder (much easier to hold) and SQ-A's are still fairly reasonably priced. As they're modular you can build up a kit as you go.

I'd suggest an SQ-Ai for long exposures. The older SQ-A doesn't have a bulb mode, so you need to use the T mode on the lens (there's a little switch on the lens itself that keeps the leaf shutter open, but it's a lot fiddlier than a simple B mode with cable release).

But having said all of that, for street I'd want a rangefinder MF camera like a Mamiya 6/7 or Fuji 645 series. Still big but much more convenient for streety type stuff.

I don't do street. I have an SQ-A.

 

[largely]

A couple of comments.
I beiieve the ETRSi offers mirror lock up.

While its a little limiting I use my Yashica tlr for street stuff. Very quiet and since you don't have to raise it to your eye most people aren't aware that you are taking a photo. Turn it left or right and it appears that it's pointed to the front while it's actually looking to the side.

I notice you didn't mention the Mamiya stuff. The 645 Pro tl meets most of your requirements. Great lenses and plentiful accessories.

Since you say you dont mind some weight and you like 6x7 negs, don't discount the RB67. I use mine hand handheld a lot. It's heavy but the big neg and rotating back make it worth it. An Opt/Tech Pro strap and the adjustable left hand grip makes it more than tolerable.
Also easier to find lenses and accessories than the Bronica.

Good luck in your quest.

Larry

 

[mweintraub]

If you want a modular system, don't discount the Bronica SQ-A. It has the benefits of the ETRS and also has MLU and you can get 6x6, 645 and 135 backs for it and the lenses are reasonably easy to find. Also not much bigger than the 645 and you have similar viewfinder options including a WLF which makes it relatively easy to hand hold.

You can also get a speed grip which is useful if using a prism finder (much easier to hold) and SQ-A's are still fairly reasonably priced. As they're modular you can build up a kit as you go.

I'd suggest an SQ-Ai for long exposures. The older SQ-A doesn't have a bulb mode, so you need to use the T mode on the lens (there's a little switch on the lens itself that keeps the leaf shutter open, but it's a lot fiddlier than a simple B mode with cable release).

But having said all of that, for street I'd want a rangefinder MF camera like a Mamiya 6/7 or Fuji 645 series. Still big but much more convenient for streety type stuff.

I don't do street. I have an SQ-A.

All great points. But, Unless the easy bulb mode is completely 120% necessary, I'd vote against the SQ-Ai because of the finiky battery system. The SQ-A's single battery is a better system.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Honestly, I'd look into a TLR. I love my Rolleiflex. It does all of the things you're talking about doing, and does them very well. If you feel deprived by having only one lens (which you shouldn't, but that's another debate for another thread) then a Mamiya C330 or other member of the family would be a good alternative.

 

[Fixcinater]

Pentax 67 could be good for you but I've never used the metering prism as mine is dead. I prefer the WLF unless doing portraits anyway. Not something I've experienced as I don't do much for long exposure work but it will drain your battery if you lock the shutter open (constantly on) unless you find one of the modified models or pull the battery out.

It hits everything else you want pretty well, including the heavy part!

 

[Hatchetman]

The Pentax 6x7 metered prism works great assuming it is functioning correctly (and you know what you're doing).

 

[Jeff Bradford]

A newer Pentax 67ii or a Mamiya Universal.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Welcome to APUG

As you already know the Hasselblad is handholdable. The only drawback for you would probably be the cost. I suggest that over the life of the camera the camera equipment becomes a small part while the cost of film, processing and supplies continue to drain money. Start with a Hasselblad body and the CF 80mm lens and then you will only have to wait a little longer for each additional lens than you would with another MF system. Also parts, lenses and service are readily available for Hasselblads, not so much for some of the other MF choices.

 

[Maris]

I have and use a Bronica GS-1 system and a Mamiya RB67 system.

The Mamiya with its revolving back, verticals or horizontals with a twist of the wrist, is quick to use with just its waist level viewfinder. The Bronica GS-1 needs a heavy rotary prism and a revolving tripod adapter to do the V to H flip. Every Mamiya lens focusses much closer than every Bronica Zenzanon PG series lens. Mamiya components, lenses, finders, backs, and bodies, are very available and cheap in the used equipment market.

If I'm photographing the unknown I'll take the versatility of the Mamiya RB67 system. If I'm taking a walk just looking for a few landscapes I'll take the Bronnie. It's heavy but doesn't bend the shoulder as much as the Mamiya. Image quality from both is impeccable. And both go on a tripod. If I was going to hand hold I'd use a premium 35mm camera and avoid the effort and expense of medium format just to get shaky pictures.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I have and use a Bronica GS-1 system and a Mamiya RB67 system.

The Mamiya with its revolving back, verticals or horizontals with a twist of the wrist, is quick to use with just its waist level viewfinder. The Bronica GS-1 needs a heavy rotary prism and a revolving tripod adapter to do the V to H flip. Every Mamiya lens focusses much closer than every Bronica Zenzanon PG series lens. Mamiya components, lenses, finders, backs, and bodies, are very available and cheap in the used equipment market.

If I'm photographing the unknown I'll take the versatility of the Mamiya RB67 system. If I'm taking a walk just looking for a few landscapes I'll take the Bronnie. It's heavy but doesn't bend the shoulder as much as the Mamiya. Image quality from both is impeccable. And both go on a tripod. If I was going to hand hold I'd use a premium 35mm camera and avoid the effort and expense of medium format just to get shaky pictures.

If you shot 6x6 you would not be having these problems.

 

[Shooter McGavin]

If you want a modular system, don't discount the Bronica SQ-A. It has the benefits of the ETRS and also has MLU and you can get 6x6, 645 and 135 backs for it and the lenses are reasonably easy to find. Also not much bigger than the 645 and you have similar viewfinder options including a WLF which makes it relatively easy to hand hold.

You can also get a speed grip which is useful if using a prism finder (much easier to hold) and SQ-A's are still fairly reasonably priced. As they're modular you can build up a kit as you go.

I'd suggest an SQ-Ai for long exposures. The older SQ-A doesn't have a bulb mode, so you need to use the T mode on the lens (there's a little switch on the lens itself that keeps the leaf shutter open, but it's a lot fiddlier than a simple B mode with cable release).

But having said all of that, for street I'd want a rangefinder MF camera like a Mamiya 6/7 or Fuji 645 series. Still big but much more convenient for streety type stuff.

I don't do street. I have an SQ-A.

Thanks for the suggestion, the SQ-A definitely seems like another contender now. If I go the Bronica route I am planning on using the speed grip and AE finder combo. Bulb is pretty important to me, but so is the reliable battery of the SQ-A, as long as I can still do long exposures with it, I'm happy.

Also not a huge fan of rangefinders, and those Mamiyas are far out of my price range.

A couple of comments.
I beiieve the ETRSi offers mirror lock up.

While its a little limiting I use my Yashica tlr for street stuff. Very quiet and since you don't have to raise it to your eye most people aren't aware that you are taking a photo. Turn it left or right and it appears that it's pointed to the front while it's actually looking to the side.

I notice you didn't mention the Mamiya stuff. The 645 Pro tl meets most of your requirements. Great lenses and plentiful accessories.

Since you say you dont mind some weight and you like 6x7 negs, don't discount the RB67. I use mine hand handheld a lot. It's heavy but the big neg and rotating back make it worth it. An Opt/Tech Pro strap and the adjustable left hand grip makes it more than tolerable.
Also easier to find lenses and accessories than the Bronica.

Good luck in your quest.

Larry

Thanks Larry. From what I've read the ETRSi is the lesser sought after version because of an increase in plastic parts. I'd like to avoid plastic as much as possible.

I have looked quite a bit in to TLRs and decided it's not the route I'd like to go. Although I do really appreciate the stealth factor, I try and shoot in ways where I don't have to try and be stealthy.

Mamiya 645 Pro TL is a bit too far out of the price range I'm looking in.

However, this RB67 is peaking my interest. I haven't looked in to it completely yet but it seems to check a lot of boxes...

Honestly, I'd look into a TLR. I love my Rolleiflex. It does all of the things you're talking about doing, and does them very well. If you feel deprived by having only one lens (which you shouldn't, but that's another debate for another thread) then a Mamiya C330 or other member of the family would be a good alternative.

I should have stated earlier that I have looked into TLR's and have decided I like other systems better. I also don't think it's unreasonable to want the ability to change lenses.

Pentax 67 could be good for you but I've never used the metering prism as mine is dead. I prefer the WLF unless doing portraits anyway. Not something I've experienced as I don't do much for long exposure work but it will drain your battery if you lock the shutter open (constantly on) unless you find one of the modified models or pull the battery out.

It hits everything else you want pretty well, including the heavy part!

How do you meter when using the WLF? And I'm not planning on doing any exposures longer than a minute most likely, so hopefully that wouldn't eat up the batteries too bad.

The Pentax 6x7 metered prism works great assuming it is functioning correctly (and you know what you're doing).

Great to know, thanks!

A newer Pentax 67ii or a Mamiya Universal.

67ii is too much dough and I'm not a rangefinder fan. Thank you though.

I have and use a Bronica GS-1 system and a Mamiya RB67 system.

The Mamiya with its revolving back, verticals or horizontals with a twist of the wrist, is quick to use with just its waist level viewfinder. The Bronica GS-1 needs a heavy rotary prism and a revolving tripod adapter to do the V to H flip. Every Mamiya lens focusses much closer than every Bronica Zenzanon PG series lens. Mamiya components, lenses, finders, backs, and bodies, are very available and cheap in the used equipment market.

If I'm photographing the unknown I'll take the versatility of the Mamiya RB67 system. If I'm taking a walk just looking for a few landscapes I'll take the Bronnie. It's heavy but doesn't bend the shoulder as much as the Mamiya. Image quality from both is impeccable. And both go on a tripod. If I was going to hand hold I'd use a premium 35mm camera and avoid the effort and expense of medium format just to get shaky pictures.

Thank you, I'm definitely going to look a bit more in the RB67. And I guess it makes more sense to get the SQ-A over the ETR-S, so I can rule the ETR-S out.


Thanks for the help everyone! I was not expecting such a response, very cool.

 

[Mark Fisher]

If you shoot mostly street photography, here are my two pics. If it must be an slr, think about the Pentax 645. It is made to be handheld and has virtually zero mirror vibration with a great internal meter. If a rangefinder is fine, look at the Fuji 6x9 and 6x4.5 cameras. The 6x9 doesn't have a meter, but there are smart phone apps for that... I use one of the 645s and their optics are phenomenal. I can handhold it reliable to about 1/30 and 1/15 is about 50-50.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Sorry, the only MF camera I know,use and love is my Hasselblad 501c.It's part of a very flexible system but I use it mostly in the studio for portrait and nude. To me a hand-held meter is a must and I don't mind it at all. I also use the camera hand-held without much hesitation.only dislike I have is that it can be hard to fcous in dim light sometimes.bodies and lenses are easy to get on a budget lately.I love the reliability and the lack of electric and electronic;wish I could afford the digital back... one day!

 

[phil0]

Depends on whether you're shooting for pay or for fun.
Fro fun the cheap way to a big negative is one of the many Ikontas and Super Ikontas. Easily available and the later ones with coated lenses are good performers. 6x6, 6x7 and 6x9 formats and fun to shoot.
For pay it's an RB67, Pentax or Hasselblad.
That said, I mostly use a Rollei 3.5 Planar.

 

[Sceptic]

Pentax 645n

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[mweintraub]

Pentax 645n

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I handled a Pentax 645 (original) a week or so ago. It's nice. I can't believe it's smaller than the Bronica. I guess the trade off is no interchangeable viewfinder or backs.

 

[LarryP]

I use a pentax 645 handheld great lenses and metering well damped mirror I have considered trading up to a 645n just because it has knobs instead of a menu.I'd highly recommend on for anyone looking for a 645 system. Actually with it in AE mode i can use it quicker than my manual 35mm gear.

 

[Robert Ley]

I can second the Pentax 645. I have two bodies and 5 prime lenses. The lenses are all very good and the meter and shutter are very accurate. The 645n is about twice the $ of the 645 and the manual focus lenses are also cheaper than the AF lenses. I also used a Pentax 6x7 and liked it very much and the lenses are extremely sharp. It is a bit heavier than the 645 but with a tripod and the mirror up feature it is very sharp and vibration is not an issue.


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[fotch]

Hello and welcome to APUG.

 

[Shooter McGavin]

If you shoot mostly street photography, here are my two pics. If it must be an slr, think about the Pentax 645. It is made to be handheld and has virtually zero mirror vibration with a great internal meter. If a rangefinder is fine, look at the Fuji 6x9 and 6x4.5 cameras. The 6x9 doesn't have a meter, but there are smart phone apps for that... I use one of the 645s and their optics are phenomenal. I can handhold it reliable to about 1/30 and 1/15 is about 50-50.

Hmmm zero mirror vibration and a great internal meter...sounds pretty killer. The Pentax 645 is right up my alley price wise as well. Stop telling me about so many cool cameras I want to buy guys! Still not into rangefinders that much.

And I was under the impression that the phone apps were in no way accurate or reliable...is there one that is?

Sorry, the only MF camera I know,use and love is my Hasselblad 501c.It's part of a very flexible system but I use it mostly in the studio for portrait and nude. To me a hand-held meter is a must and I don't mind it at all. I also use the camera hand-held without much hesitation.only dislike I have is that it can be hard to fcous in dim light sometimes.bodies and lenses are easy to get on a budget lately.I love the reliability and the lack of electric and electronic;wish I could afford the digital back... one day!

Perhaps some day I will own a Hasselblad, but it's just simply not in the cards right now.

Depends on whether you're shooting for pay or for fun.
Fro fun the cheap way to a big negative is one of the many Ikontas and Super Ikontas. Easily available and the later ones with coated lenses are good performers. 6x6, 6x7 and 6x9 formats and fun to shoot.
For pay it's an RB67, Pentax or Hasselblad.
That said, I mostly use a Rollei 3.5 Planar.

It is for both pay and fun, but I get what you're saying. The RB67 has completely wiped the Bronicas out of my thoughts. Strong contender.

I handled a Pentax 645 (original) a week or so ago. It's nice. I can't believe it's smaller than the Bronica. I guess the trade off is no interchangeable viewfinder or backs.

Thanks for the input! So does the 645 just have a standard 120 back?

I use a pentax 645 handheld great lenses and metering well damped mirror I have considered trading up to a 645n just because it has knobs instead of a menu.I'd highly recommend on for anyone looking for a 645 system. Actually with it in AE mode i can use it quicker than my manual 35mm gear.

Thanks for the input, I'm strongly considering the 645 now.

I can second the Pentax 645. I have two bodies and 5 prime lenses. The lenses are all very good and the meter and shutter are very accurate. The 645n is about twice the $ of the 645 and the manual focus lenses are also cheaper than the AF lenses. I also used a Pentax 6x7 and liked it very much and the lenses are extremely sharp. It is a bit heavier than the 645 but with a tripod and the mirror up feature it is very sharp and vibration is not an issue.


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And another tally for Pentax 645...I prefer manual focus so that's a win for me! Did you ever try handheld with the 6x7?

Hello and welcome to APUG.

Thanks!

So more killer feedback from y'all, you guys might be making my decision harder though....so many awesome cameras. But as I said earlier the Bronicas have been removed from the equation. I'd say now it's down to the RB67 or a Pentax 645/6x7. RB67 might be slightly in the lead for having so many awesome film back options as well as the back rotation thing. But I'm going to do some more research on this here Pentax 645. Thanks again y'all.

 

[film_man]

First decide whether you want 645 or 6x7. If you do not mind the weight the RB67 is simply fantastic. I have one, the negatives are fantastic and you can buy it for peanuts.

If you do go the RB67 route the accessories all pretty much interchangeable between the Pro, ProS and ProSD bodies. However I would suggest that you get a ProSD body (as it is newer), ProSD backs (as they don't have foam light traps) and look for K/L lenses (as they are the newest and generally of newer and better design). I would also suggest you get the grip for it as it makes it much easier to handhold. Plus the RB is surprisingly smooth and I can hand hold it down to 1/15 with the 90mm lens.

On the other hand the Pentax 645 will be so much quicker to use and is tiny compared to the RB. Also the Bronica SQ cameras are great value and a great system. If you like 6x6 look for a SQB (had one, my first medium format camera) or SQAi as these would be the newest. They are great cameras and with the right hand speed grip you can use it as a big 35mm SLR, you can even wind the film with your thumb like that.

Can't go wrong with any of these choices really!

 

[Roger Cole]

A couple of comments.
I beiieve the ETRSi offers mirror lock up.

While its a little limiting I use my Yashica tlr for street stuff. Very quiet and since you don't have to raise it to your eye most people aren't aware that you are taking a photo. Turn it left or right and it appears that it's pointed to the front while it's actually looking to the side.

I notice you didn't mention the Mamiya stuff. The 645 Pro tl meets most of your requirements. Great lenses and plentiful accessories.

....

Also not a huge fan of rangefinders, and those Mamiyas are far out of my price range.

....

I have looked quite a bit in to TLRs and decided it's not the route I'd like to go. Although I do really appreciate the stealth factor, I try and shoot in ways where I don't have to try and be stealthy.

Mamiya 645 Pro TL is a bit too far out of the price range I'm looking in.

...

I should have stated earlier that I have looked into TLR's and have decided I like other systems better. I also don't think it's unreasonable to want the ability to change lenses.



How do you meter when using the WLF? And I'm not planning on doing any exposures longer than a minute most likely, so hopefully that wouldn't eat up the batteries too bad.



Great to know, thanks!

If the Mamiya Pro TL is too much, look for a Pro non-TL, though I'm not sure of the price difference. But if you don't need the TTL flash metering you'll be just fine. I have the M645 Pro with the AE prism finder and the winder grip and it's a great system. Lenses are readily available and top notch. Interchangeable backs are great. If it has a drawback to my mind it's weight and bulk once tricked out but you probably don't mind that.

I personally have never seen a 6x7 format camera I would routinely use handheld but I know lots of people do. Heck, my M645 kit outweighs my 4x5 kit though I don't use the latter hand held.

If the objection to TLRs is the lack of lens interchangeability consider the Mamiya TLRs. There are several threads about them here. Bigger and bulkier than fixed lens TLRs but not that bad. I don't know about in-camera metering options though since I don't own that system.

 

[Robert Ley]

The RB-67 is a great camera, a great studio camera!
I had one of these beasts back in the late 70's and used it to shot weddings. It had a 45 degree prism and hand grip. By the end of a Saturday my left arm was about to fall off and I was constantly looking for a place to set it down.. The only reason I had one is the studio that I worked for used them. It is unbeatable on a tripod and was used by scores of great photographers for product and portraits but it is decidedly NOT a walk around street shooter...far too conspicuous and bulky.
Why do you feel that film backs are so important?
The 645 has both 120 and 220 inserts and the bodies are so cheap now that I just had an extra body. I shot Alaska one summer with one body in color film the other in B&W and that really worked well.


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