Looking for opinions on selecting a camera

[Ces1um]

I would honestly rent or borrow a mirrorless camera before buying one. I’d want to be really sure I was comfortable with an electronic viewfinder first (or a Fuji hybrid viewfinder, which I found too gimmicky). I’m also unsure how much I would enjoy using a lens adapter, vs native lenses. I wouldn’t discount an aps-c Nikon SLR—you would gain access to half a century of Nikon MF and AF lenses for reasonable prices. You can also get nice modern zooms without spending thousands on the fast 2.8 zooms. I bought and sold a few digital cameras one-two years ago, and wound up with a new D750 (full frame “prosumer” model that is now discounted) and a new nikkor 50mm 1.8G, and have been very happy since. It’s a little bigger, but not heavy, and it’s ergonomics and big optical viewfinder are excellent. The full frame cameras only get *huge* when you start adding the high end zoom or tele lenses. If you have one small to medium prime or zoom lens, it’s perfect (in my world) to walk around with.

I have mostly pentax glass currently, but all of it is quite old and I'm sure it's coatings have worn over the years. I don't think I want to get into using adapters at all frankly. I'm sure some people will tell me they work perfectly fine but I think I'd rather not open that can of worms.

So from what I've been hearing m4/3 likely isn't the way to go. I've had everything from point and shoot, to mirrorless, to aps-c, to full frame dslr's recommended over going to m4/3. I've watched a few reviews on them and a lot of the photobloggers are panning them. I've seen a few people who are using m4/3 who say they aren't anywhere near as bad as people make them out to be. Very confusing overall.

So I went out with my gopro the other day and took some photos with it. They're 12mp and my new retina display imac can't fully display a 12mp image. It cuts off a good chunk of the bottom of the photo. I'm thinking if I can't display a 12mp photo on my 4096 x 2304 screen imac then why would I need anything above 12 mp at all? The biggest I'll ever print is 8x12 so I really only need about 8 megapixels to provide an acceptable result on paper. I understand a larger sensor provides other benefits over simple resolution/image size but there must be a logical limit to what a consumer would require in terms of sensor size.

 

[4season]

I think it's important never to lose sight of your own priorities. The world's full of people who have great gear which sits at home because their phone is so much handier.

 

[MattKing]

So from what I've been hearing m4/3 likely isn't the way to go. I've had everything from point and shoot, to mirrorless, to aps-c, to full frame dslr's recommended over going to m4/3. I've watched a few reviews on them and a lot of the photobloggers are panning them. I've seen a few people who are using m4/3 who say they aren't anywhere near as bad as people make them out to be. Very confusing overall.

All I can say, is that my small bag with an Olympus OM film body and a couple of lenses, complemented with my OM-D and the kit lens, gives me everything I want in a small package.
As for low light capability - ISO 4000, from our deck recently:

 

[Ko.Fe.]

M8 is still sold as used. It is RF, has only 1.33 crop factor and it is slightly above 8Mp.
One of the sharpest sensors I used.
Industar 61 and ltm macro rings allows close-up pictures. Framing is by guess, but it is instant review.

 

[Luckless]

More Data does equal More Options.

There are of course limits to this idea, but I would put your current screen display limitations as a soft target rather than a hard limit while you're narrowing down your choices.

If you're of a tech/science/mathy mindset, then I suggest googling a short paper titled "a pixel is not a little square" to help you get a better idea of what can be done and how digital graphics are actually working.

But if you fall more towards the mindset of not wanting to know what's going on behind the curtain, then I guess the shortest summary is that capturing more data from the get go allows you to sample more points to produce a better lower resolution image in the end than if you started with a recording that was only as 'large' as your final output size.

It is easier to throw away data you don't need after the fact than it is to create data you didn't have in the first place.

But in the end it is important that you get a camera that you've seen sample images out of which you're happy with that were taken in the sort of conditions you expect to use it in.


Personally I would give serious consideration first to camera bodies that natively match the glass you already like, and then ask yourself if those meet all your core requirements or not. In my mind, adapters are just another bit of kit to lug around, have fail, or get forgotten somewhere.

Other important questions to ask: Do the controls work well in your hands, and does the camera function in a way that lets you get the images you're after? If the controls feel really cumbersome to get to in a store, they're unlikely to feel less cumbersome when you're out on a hike.

 

[Ces1um]

All I can say, is that my small bag with an Olympus OM film body and a couple of lenses, complemented with my OM-D and the kit lens, gives me everything I want in a small package.
As for low light capability - ISO 4000, from our deck recently:
View attachment 218227

That photo looks perfectly fine by my eyes. I also like the idea of smaller lenses taking less room. I was at the local camera repair centre and two people working there had differing opinions of Olympus. Maybe none of this stuff means anything or makes any difference. I'm probably overthinking things. I also don't earn any money from my photography. I'm just an enthusiast who won't ever win any awards. I might just go in and buy whatever feels best in my hands.

 

[Ces1um]

More Data does equal More Options.

Personally I would give serious consideration first to camera bodies that natively match the glass you already like, and then ask yourself if those meet all your core requirements or not. In my mind, adapters are just another bit of kit to lug around, have fail, or get forgotten somewhere.

Other important questions to ask: Do the controls work well in your hands, and does the camera function in a way that lets you get the images you're after? If the controls feel really cumbersome to get to in a store, they're unlikely to feel less cumbersome when you're out on a hike.

I only have old manual glass without any type of electrical contacts. Most of my lenses have seen hard use. I actually think I'd like to have new lenses that are as modern as my camera so I can enjoy better image stabilisation, etc...

 

[MattKing]

I only have old manual glass without any type of electrical contacts. Most of my lenses have seen hard use. I actually think I'd like to have new lenses that are as modern as my camera so I can enjoy better image stabilisation, etc...

The Olympus 5 axis image stabilization is entirely within the body. So you will get stabilization with your old lenses.
Some systems work that way, others involve the lenses as well.
The biggest reason to go micro 4/3 is the size and weight.

 

[Ces1um]

Thanks everyone for your feedback and help. I'm now in the process of raising funds for the new camera and I've been given a lot of good advice. I'll mull through what everyone has said and see what kind of gear I can afford after the sale of my film cameras.

 

[jim10219]

Good luck! Ultimately, I think you'd want to ask yourself what you need from the camera before making a final decision. Just sit down, and make a list of everything you have to have, everything you'd like to have, and everything you'd rather not deal with. Then from there, the answer should be fairly obvious. Trying to look at all of the camera options out there and figure out which one is best for you can be confusing and unproductive. The reason why they make so many different types of cameras, is because they each serve different purposes. Different people like different ones, because they have different needs. So narrow it down by fitting the camera to your needs, not your needs to the camera.

In any case, continue your research and remember it's always better to buy the right product the first time than to buy something that's cheaper and doesn't quite fill all of your needs. That'll just make you frustrated, and you'll likely wind up buying another camera before too long. Or worse yet, you'll hate using it and photography will turn into a chore. And remember, camera bodies are cheap compared to lenses. So if you decide you want an interchangeable lens camera and you already have a bunch of lenses, it would be cheaper in the long run to buy a digital body that works well with your current lenses. And keep in mind that that includes effective focal lengths as well as functionality (should you go for something smaller than full frame). Also consider the price and availability of current lenses available for the new system before purchasing it. A great body that you can't find (or afford) great lenses for won't do you much good.

 

[blockend]

The "M4/3 doesn't have a future" meme is the sole responsibility of king of the clickbait header, Tony Northrop. The guy who last week announced "The $500 Mirrorless Canon to beat Sony, Fuji and Nikon", which turned out to be a general musing on what such a camera might be if it ever existed. Which it doesn't. "Why I Quit" (He doesn't do that either) and most infamously "Why Micro Four-Thirds is DEAD" (It isn't). This was based on the fact Panasonic announced a mirrorless full frame camera. The company have since claimed they are fully behind M4/3. Sony produce at least four sensor sizes for their own cameras, with no sign of any going away.

I have no more idea of the long term future of the format than anyone else, including Tony and Chelsea, but see no reason why it might go away. The cameras are excellent, lenses are superb (including the Leica variants), image stabilisation in camera and body is legendary, prices are way below full frame equivalents (£2300 for Panasonic's full frame 50mm 1.4, £3876 for the Leica version). If you do a lot of low light photography there are better options, but people used to film ASA will wonder what all the fuss is about. And it's all really small. M4/3 is definitely worth a look.

 

[Chan Tran]

The "M4/3 doesn't have a future" meme is the sole responsibility of king of the clickbait header, Tony Northrop. The guy who last week announced "The $500 Mirrorless Canon to beat Sony, Fuji and Nikon", which turned out to be a general musing on what such a camera might be if it ever existed. Which it doesn't. "Why I Quit" (He doesn't do that either) and most infamously "Why Micro Four-Thirds is DEAD" (It isn't). This was based on the fact Panasonic announced a mirrorless full frame camera. The company have since claimed they are fully behind M4/3. Sony produce at least four sensor sizes for their own cameras, with no sign of any going away.

I have no more idea of the long term future of the format than anyone else, including Tony and Chelsea, but see no reason why it might go away. The cameras are excellent, lenses are superb (including the Leica variants), image stabilisation in camera and body is legendary, prices are way below full frame equivalents (£2300 for Panasonic's full frame 50mm 1.4, £3876 for the Leica version). If you do a lot of low light photography there are better options, but people used to film ASA will wonder what all the fuss is about. And it's all really small. M4/3 is definitely worth a look.

Although I don't agree with all the things you listed I considered them as prediction and until the future shows I wouldn't know. Now what I strongly disagree with him is that he said "ISO is totally fake".

 

[blockend]

Although I don't agree with all the things you listed I considered them as prediction and until the future shows I wouldn't know. Now what I strongly disagree with him is that he said "ISO is totally fake".

Tony Northrup has three criteria. How far can you push ISO? Is the camera "professional"? Is the camera full frame? He has no interest in any other factor.

He shot his show on a GH5.

 

[JWMster]

I used to listen to Scott Bourne when he was a Fuji fanboy. Scott's a birder, and at some point after getting dissed by Fuji and having a Fuji equipment breakdown and missing the sort of PRO service Nikon and Cannon make available, he switched to Panasonic MFT and loved that the equivalent of a 600mm lens is simply that much lighter and more portable. He then became a fanboy for Panasonic and their Leica-designed glass. If you are after small and light based on what's available now, MFT should get a serious look. Even if it dies tomorrow - which it won't btw - you can pick up the kit you need today, treat it gently and have many good years of use. If all the rest subsequently quit the format, you can inventory a spare body or two or three for virtually nothing as they sell their stuff. Do what makes sense for you.... and don't listen to the noise that doesn't even make sense to the gear heads listening to the gear heads whose heads are literally spinning off their shoulders. Olympus makes fine stuff. So, too, does Panasonic.

 

[mark]

I am super happy with my Nikon 7100. My dad has an 800 and I find it much too heavy. The 7100 does everything I need it too and then some.

 

[Austintatious]

New" I am super happy with my Nikon 7100. My dad has an 800 and I find it much too heavy. The 7100 does everything I need it too and then some."

+1... I picked up a nice used D7100 at Christmas for myself. Great camera. They have the screw drive and can use all the D glass that is excellent and affordable.

 

[Ces1um]

UPDATE- So I ended up buying the Olympus om-d m5 ii. The camera, a 14-150 lens, two memory cards and a spare battery set me back $1500 cdn after 15% sales tax. Given the weather sealing, the amazing deal on the lens itself (coupled with the body it was only $100, normally $749 alone), the size of the camera and the zoom range of the lens- all of this was ideal for my upcoming trip. Now I have to learn 171 pages of an electronic manual to figure out how to use this thing. My k1000 had three things I had to adjust- and one of those I just had to read off of the film canister. Why can't you have the option to pay for a printed and bound manual from the retailer?

 

[lantau]

Good choice, I'm very happy with mine! I bought it with the 12-40/2.8 Pro as a kit zoom. Bigger than my primes, but the same optical quality. I got it just after it came out in early 2015, right before a three week trip to Malaysia. It is still the current model. So much about having to buy a new camera a year to keep up... Unacceptable of course for some people and many reviewers.

You really don't need to read the manual end to end. The most important function is the so called super menu when you push the OK button. It gives you a 2D grid of icons for the most important settings. Like ISO or how the shutter operates (single, serial, anti shock, electronic) flash modes, white balance, etc.

But at the end of the day I put it into aperture priority most of the time and it's not much different than my manual focus Minolta cameras. Except it's autofocus and the aperture is adjusted on the body, not the lens.

Compared to some DSLRs the camera doesn't have that many buttons and looks pretty clean. OTOH it has enough to configure custom buttons for more advanced uses.

There is only one usability problem that bit me: The HDR button. If you accidently press that without noticing it (there is a HDR icon in the display that I often overlooked) you may think the camera is broken because it will wait for you to finish three exposures to combine into one. It looks like most functions are disabled. Of course the button can be reassigned or disabled deep in the config menus.

If you want to use manual lenses with it then look up how to activate focus peaking. Focused edges will turn red, showing you what is in focus. Replaces the micro prisms of a MF camera viewfinder.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Take a look at this. This may be helpful.

https://www.dxomark.com/

 

[DWThomas]

Why can't you have the option to pay for a printed and bound manual from the retailer?

Ah yes! What I've been doing of late is downloading (or creating) a .PDF file of various manuals and instruction sheets and loading them into the Books app on my iPhone. It can be a little tedious to read some details, but it's way better than not having anything. I've even put .PDFs of the manuals for my Voigtlander Perkeo II and Yashica 124G on the phone. In fact, I even have the owner's manual for my Mazda CX-5 on the phone -- saves walking out in the cold to open the glove compartment!

It's vaguely amusing to me that the "manual" for some of my earliest cameras runs 20 or 30 pages and some of the latest it's closer to 300.

 

[Ces1um]

Good choice, I'm very happy with mine! I bought it with the 12-40/2.8 Pro as a kit zoom. Bigger than my primes, but the same optical quality. I got it just after it came out in early 2015, right before a three week trip to Malaysia. It is still the current model. So much about having to buy a new camera a year to keep up... Unacceptable of course for some people and many reviewers.

You really don't need to read the manual end to end. The most important function is the so called super menu when you push the OK button. It gives you a 2D grid of icons for the most important settings. Like ISO or how the shutter operates (single, serial, anti shock, electronic) flash modes, white balance, etc.
.

I'm with you- I don't see any reason to upgrade every few years. I don't do it with my cell phone or computer, I'm not doing it with my camera.
How do you use the self timer? If all goes well this weekend I plan on taking some photos of a waterfall and I'd like to put it on a tripod, trigger the timer and have it fire off a few seconds later.
I also have no idea how to set it to shoot in raw format. I only had about 20 minutes to play with it after waiting for the battery to charge but couldn't see a way to get to that setting.
They also gave me a free one month trial of lightroom cc. The program seems powerful to use but it's not exactly cheap at 20 bucks US to renew on a monthly basis. Can you still buy a single version of the desktop only application? Software companies seem to have figured out a way to squeeze a little bit of money out of you over a long period of time to use their software!

 

[MattKing]

Olympus has just released new software that is ideal for your camera, and is reasonably similar to Lightroom in its operation - non-destructive editing etc.
It is called Olympus Workspace, and you download it for free from the Olympus website, using the serial number of your camera to register.
The Olympus "Raw" file format ("ORF") is proprietary. To my mind the raw file converter in Olympus Workspace is a bit better than that which is offered in my other, non-Adobe software choices.
The software includes the firmware update utility for your camera.
One wrinkle - once downloaded, you immediately need to update it using the utility linked under "Help" in order to access the Help files.
As for the manual, I have it on a small and inexpensive tablet, and find it helpful to spend a few minutes wandering through a few pages at a time.
The matrix on the back screen one accesses with the OK button has most of what you need. The discrete and programmable function buttons are great, but you have to set them to what you need.

 

[Ces1um]

Olympus has just released new software that is ideal for your camera, and is reasonably similar to Lightroom in its operation - non-destructive editing etc.
It is called Olympus Workspace, and you download it for free from the Olympus website, using the serial number of your camera to register.
The Olympus "Raw" file format ("ORF") is proprietary. To my mind the raw file converter in Olympus Workspace is a bit better than that which is offered in my other, non-Adobe software choices.
The software includes the firmware update utility for your camera.
One wrinkle - once downloaded, you immediately need to update it using the utility linked under "Help" in order to access the Help files.
As for the manual, I have it on a small and inexpensive tablet, and find it helpful to spend a few minutes wandering through a few pages at a time.
The matrix on the back screen one accesses with the OK button has most of what you need. The discrete and programmable function buttons are great, but you have to set them to what you need.

I downloaded that software and will give it some use. It does look like it has quite a few decent options but definitely doesn't feel as refined as lightroom. Not bad for a free offering though, especially when compared to how costly lightroom can become.

 

[MattKing]

The biggest reason I like it comes from the quality of the raw converter.
I also have and use Corel's Aftershot Pro which also offers non-destructive editing. Its power approaches the power of Lightroom (without requiring a subscription) but I prefer the raw converter in the Olympus offering.

 

[lantau]

I'm with you- I don't see any reason to upgrade every few years. I don't do it with my cell phone or computer, I'm not doing it with my camera.
How do you use the self timer? If all goes well this weekend I plan on taking some photos of a waterfall and I'd like to put it on a tripod, trigger the timer and have it fire off a few seconds later.
I also have no idea how to set it to shoot in raw format. I only had about 20 minutes to play with it after waiting for the battery to charge but couldn't see a way to get to that setting.
They also gave me a free one month trial of lightroom cc. The program seems powerful to use but it's not exactly cheap at 20 bucks US to renew on a monthly basis. Can you still buy a single version of the desktop only application? Software companies seem to have figured out a way to squeeze a little bit of money out of you over a long period of time to use their software!

In the Super Menu (OK Button) the setting for image format is at the bottom of the second row from the left. You can select the quality of the jpeg: LF is large, fine; LN is large, normal; LN+raw is the same plus a raw is saved etc. One wheel will move through the menus fields, the other wheel will cycle through a given setting.

You can also navigate to the item and hit ok and it will leave the super menu and show all options for this setting and you can select at your leasure.

The shutter is the setting above. For single shot it is a simple rectangle. You select one of the clock symbols. Either with a 2s or 12s index. On a tripod 2s should be enough. You'll also notice that many settings are there as a triple. Alone, with a diamond or with a heart. The diamond is anti shock (something about how and when the curtains will run) and silent. Silent means electronic shutter instead of the mechanical one.

I know that it sounds a bit mind boggling. But when you look at the actual icons you'll see that it is very systematic and intuitive. By combining a base feature (single, serial, timed shutter) with a modification (none, anti shock, silent, 2s timer, 12s timer) you get so many combinations.

I find it fascinating. It is great to still discover new possibilities as the camera grows on you. But you can still use is in as simple a manner as you like.

I have a license each for Lightroom 4 and 5. Neither supports the EM5-II. Others hate it, but I don't mind using the free Adobe DNG converter to convert the cameras raw files to DNG (digital negative) and then import those into my Lightroom 5. That version does anything I need. I think Version six had an anti haze function, but that was pretty much it.

I can use my copy for ever if I wish. It also works great in a virtual machine. So should it ever stop working on a current windows I can always run a Windows 7 or 8 in a VM for just this purpose. Eventually I think I will migrate to something else, but I know that I won't be forced to do so.

I will not commit to a subscription based model. You never know what bumps will be in the road ahead and I consider it prudent to keep ongoing commitments to a minimum. I prefer to buy and know I can use it until I can afford to replace it.