Looking for an decent entry into medium format. Thinking TLR

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Donald Qualls

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Two more TLRs that are (or at least used to be) priced well below the above list and still capable of good images as long as you don't shoot wide open (they'll be soft on the largest and next smaller aperture):

Seagull (several models, also sometimes labeled "Hai Ou") -- works very much like a Yashica, has f/3.5 triplet.

And Lubitel 166 -- a little different operating, but has a bright finder with a focusing patch, making it easier to compose (but no better to focus) in low light. Also f/3.5 triplet. These are one of the original "Lomography" cameras, but if you aren't welcoming fuzzy, vignetted corners and light leaks, they're easily put/kept in that state as well.
 
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Glausuche

Glausuche

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Maybe this was clarified above, but the Yashica D lens Paul is recommending is named 'Yashinon.' This is the 4-element 'Tessar-type' lens for Yashica, labeled as 'Yashinon.' Most Yashica Ds have the Yashikor lens, which is a 3-element lens design, so know which lens you are buying (Yashikor is a good lens but has some distinct 'issues' used at larger apertures).

I'd strongly encourage the OP to look at places like the classifieds here and other photo forum communities. Condition is critical, and people in places like this will be honest and you will know what you are getting yourself into. Or used sellers like Blue Moon Camera or Glass Key. Hoping to score as a bottom feeder on Ebay these days is not very easy.
Thanks for acknowledging this. This is why I’ve joined this community. I feel as if I’ve been searching for a MF camera for about 2 years, but didn’t know this existed. I feel like I don’t know enough about all the variations, but I know enough to know that I don’t want to spend the few dollars I have on junk. I’d rather buy a lesser TLR in good condition than get a fancier one that needed a ton of work off the bat. And I realize I might need to eventually pay for a CLA, but would prefer to not have to do it immediately, yk?
 
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Glausuche

Glausuche

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Maybe this was clarified above, but the Yashica D lens Paul is recommending is named 'Yashinon.' This is the 4-element 'Tessar-type' lens for Yashica, labeled as 'Yashinon.' Most Yashica Ds have the Yashikor lens, which is a 3-element lens design, so know which lens you are buying (Yashikor is a good lens but has some distinct 'issues' used at larger apertures).

I'd strongly encourage the OP to look at places like the classifieds here and other photo forum communities. Condition is critical, and people in places like this will be honest and you will know what you are getting yourself into. Or used sellers like Blue Moon Camera or Glass Key. Hoping to score as a bottom feeder on Ebay these days is not very easy.

Thanks for the clarification!
 
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Glausuche

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See if you can borrow a copy of Chavez Ravine, 1949 a Los Angeles Story, by Don Normark. He used a little tin can Ciro Flex with an 85mm Wollensak Velostigmat. A $50 camera. The work is jaw dropping. It was all he could afford in 1949 when he was a college student.

The link isn’t working.
 
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Glausuche

Glausuche

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My entry into MF was a Minolta Autocord and it remains my favourite TLR after all these years, even though I'm now mostly shooting with a Rolleiflex. I probably have over 20 TLRs, mostly Autocords, Yashicas, and Rolleiflexes/cords of various vintages and styles.

If you decide to go the TLR route (or any camera for that matter), condition should be the first consideration.

Are you willing to sell any of them?
 

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Ricohflex in one of its several iterations, is a very good camera. The lens always surprises me with how capable it is and it’s light as a feather.
Takes some care with red window and no double exposure prevention and cocking the shutter. So not by any means a fast camera.
 
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Glausuche

Glausuche

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Two more TLRs that are (or at least used to be) priced well below the above list and still capable of good images as long as you don't shoot wide open (they'll be soft on the largest and next smaller aperture):

Seagull (several models, also sometimes labeled "Hai Ou") -- works very much like a Yashica, has f/3.5 triplet.

And Lubitel 166 -- a little different operating, but has a bright finder with a focusing patch, making it easier to compose (but no better to focus) in low light. Also f/3.5 triplet. These are one of the original "Lomography" cameras, but if you aren't welcoming fuzzy, vignetted corners and light leaks, they're easily put/kept in that state as well.

Everything I’ve read/ seen says both of those are lousy. Like I said at the top. I have a holga. And I have a foldable (Ansco Viking Readyset)which I got for $25 and I’m currently testing. I want something that will make good images consistently. Plus I want to refine my craft to my early days when I was shooting more often on my first semi automatic Pentax.
 
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Glausuche

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Hey, Glausuche, welcome to the forum. I'm also in Upstate SC (Greenville). I'd be willing to meet up some time and you can try out my Yashica D. PM me.

This is such a nice offer! I’m still not sure how to PM. I think I am not “seasoned enough” to do everything yet- like I don’t have those privileges. Feel free to PM. me and I’ll respond.
 

Donald Qualls

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Everything I’ve read/ seen says both of those are lousy. Like I said at the top. I have a holga. And I have a foldable (Ansco Viking Readyset)which I got for $25 and I’m currently testing. I want something that will make good images consistently. Plus I want to refine my craft to my early days when I was shooting more often on my first semi automatic Pentax.

I owned a Seagull for a couple years, I was pretty happy with the images I got. Sold it because most of the leather was off and I didn't have time, skills, or money to fix that. Haven't used a Lubitel, but I've seem some good images from them. These are a far cry from a single-element plastic lens; these are coated glass triplets, comparable to what you'd get in the Yashikor equipped Yashica A, C, and D. The Seagull has knob operated focus (like a Yashica or Rolleicord), some of the later models have crank advance (the one I had was red window with a knob, however). The Lubitel has geared together lenses like a Reflex II or Ricohflex. These are NOT toy cameras.
 

Helge

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Minolta Autocord best value out there.

They’re good, but they have their share of problems too. Stiff levers. Broken or breaking handles. Broken sports finder.
But yeah, find a good one and have some time to really look it over.
They are not especially cheap though. They cost the same as a Rolleicord or more.
 

JPD

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Yaschica D with the 4 element Tessar taking lens and 2.8 viewing lens. The Shutter must be cocked before tripping the shutter and film manually wound allowing for easy multiple exposures. The D with 3 element taking lens and 3.5 is also good if want a bit of softness wide open. Also in the 3 element range was Yaschia A and C.

Maybe this was clarified above, but the Yashica D lens Paul is recommending is named 'Yashinon.' This is the 4-element 'Tessar-type' lens for Yashica, labeled as 'Yashinon.' Most Yashica Ds have the Yashikor lens, which is a 3-element lens design, so know which lens you are buying (Yashikor is a good lens but has some distinct 'issues' used at larger apertures).

I bought a Yashica A for my father on his 70th birthday, and the three element Yashikor surprised me. It's a fine and sharp lens stopped down, and at 3,5 to 5,6 it has a pleasant "real" softness and swirly background. Less harsh than many other triplets, like the Triotar. The Yashikor is a lens with character for sure.

If one is looking for an all-round lens that doesn't change it's character too much at larger apertures, perhaps a four element lens is a safer buy. The Yashikor is a fine lens, but you might not want to go into "portrait mode" with softness just because the light got darker in the afternoon.
 

Paul Howell

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The one thing that increase the contrast with a Yaschica is flock the interior. One reason the Minolta Autocorde is sharper with more contrast is that it is better flocked. If you are very careful you can pain with a very small bush with a very flat black paint or line with black felt cloth. And use a lens hood.
 
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Glausuche

Glausuche

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The one thing that increase the contrast with a Yaschica is flock the interior. One reason the Minolta Autocorde is sharper with more contrast is that it is better flocked. If you are very careful you can pain with a very small bush with a very flat black paint or line with black felt cloth. And use a lens hood.

This is a great tip if I get one. Being an artist, I’m a whiz with a paintbrush.😁
 
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I believe everything is backward in a TWL so you have to aim left when it looks like you should aim right? I had that issue when I bought a Mamiya RB67 SLR with a waist-level finder. I was able to change it to an eye-level finder so it aimed like a typical 35mm SLR. You can't use an eye-level finder with most twin-lens cameras.

Something to think about before you jump in.
 

rulnacco

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My entry to medium format was the Mamiya TLR series--and it was a great way to get into it, in retrospect, so I'll add my voice to those recommending that system.

If you don't *want* to change lenses, just get one with the 80/2.8 and be happy. Or, if you prefer wider, get the 65--a really great lens--or 55; if you prefer longer, get the 105 or 135. (The 180 Super is a fantastic lens, too, but that may be a bit *too* long for general use.) So that's an advantage of the Mamiya system; you *can* stick with one lens, but you can choose the length you want, which isn't available on most TLRs.

I see some of the other advantages of the Mamiya TLR system have been mentioned above. The bellows is very nice, as it will allow you to focus much closer than an SLR would normally (although you have to deal with parallax in that case). Also, you don't have to worry about mirror slap/blackout/noise, like you would with an SLR. I don't have my Mamiya TLR anymore, I traded my kit in toward a Rolleiflex 2.8F (which I sometimes regret; I *love* the Rolleiflex, but it isn't as versatile as the Mamiya certainly--and it was way more expensive), but I like having a TLR for those occasions when I want to shoot silently, or when I want to be able to see the subject at the precise moment of exposure--I sometimes shoot dancers, often with strobes, and unlike with an SLR I can see exactly what position they were in when the shutter fired so I know if I got the shot or not.

Not only that, a TLR will fire the shutter practically *immediately* when you press the button. With an SLR, you have the delay caused by the whole sequence of shutter closing-mirror flipping up/aperture stopping down-shutter opening for exposure. So when I'm shooting with, say, a Hasselblad, I have to try to *anticipate* where the moving individual will be when the shutter actually fires in that process; and even then, I don't really *know* if I got them precisely where I wanted them. With a TLR, the "snick" of the shutter happens almost instantaneously when I fire the camera, and I can see in the viewfinder exactly (particularly with strobes) what was happening in front of the camera when the exposure was made.

Heck, even though they're reasonably priced nowadays and considered more "entry level" than other medium format cameras, the Mamiya TLR was good enough for Diane Arbus--and she would have to rank somewhere amongst the greatest photographic artists of all time.

(Oh, and to respond to Alan's message above--yes, *all* waist-level finders are reversed left-to-right. But even with TLRs, you can often get prisms for unreversed viewing--at least with Mamiyas and Rollieflexes you can, and you certainly can for nearly all SLRs with waist-level finders. It's easy enough to get used to the reversal, though--just move the camera the way you need to *in the viewfinder* to get the composition you want, don't worry about what's in front of the camera. I have a prism for my Hasselblad, but I almost never use it because I'm so used to using the technique I just mentioned. In fact, it crosses me up to use the prism, even though it is showing me things the right way around.)
 
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markjwyatt

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Oooh. I did not know about the flexibility of 6x6 and 6x4.5 on them. That’s a valuable argument for them. Plus the switch for double exposure… but weight is a factor that is important to me…

To be clear, when I say 6x4.5, I mean cropped from 6x6 obviously. You do not get 16 exposures from 120 for instance. With a TLR you do really want square format so you do not have to rotate the camera to get a portrait view for instance, rather you just know you will crop the negative (the only time I rotated a TLR was if I wanted to "shoot around a corner" clandestinely). When I used Mamiya TLRs for weddings/events in the past, I usually composed the pictures with rectangular crop in mind. I knew I would crop out either vertical or horizontal stripes depending on what orientation I intended. Of course this idea applies to all 6x6 cameras.
 
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albireo

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The Minolta Autocord is good, but it's been hyped a lot recently in the English-speaking film camera world. Possibly a mixture of Youtube/Blogger reviews and wider availability in the US market compared to some of its German counterparts.

I have, and use constantly, an Autocord and a Rolleicord Va. Both CLAd, both working perfectly. Both great cameras, but the Rolleicord is unbelievable. Incredibly, and I mean incredibly light and nimble. It hangs from my neck as I explore on my bicycle for hours, and I don't even feel it. The Minolta is also good, but heavier, and mechanically feels more delicate. Both sport incredible f/3.5 Tessar clones, the Minolta has the Rokkor and the Rolleicord the Xenar. They are seriously good especially from f/8 and above, and they're practically indistinguishable from one another. From f/11 and above they are indistinguishable from the Planar 6 elements in my Rollei 3.5FIII (a stunning camera, way better mechanically than the other two, but gets much less use because it's much heavier). A Rolleicord Va for 200 Euro was probably my best ever photo purchase.

I personally can't quite see the reason for the popularity of the Mamiya, and I'd never buy one after testing a friend's one. A really bulky camera, really huge compared to the Rolleicord, and if I wanted a heavy camera with interchangeable lenses I'd personally go for a SLR.

In the end, choose one that works well and that it's either mint/little used or it has been recently CLA'd by a serious professional. The best TLR is the one that works by the specs. My 3.5FIII was worse optically than my Rolleicord before I had it CLA'd.
 
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markjwyatt

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...I can't quite see the reason for the popularity of the Mamiya, and I'd never buy one after testing a friend's one. A really bulky camera, really huge compared to the Rolleicord, and if I wanted a heavy camera with interchangeable lenses I'd personally go for a SLR...

The reason the Mamiya C series was popular for me is that I wanted a MF camera to make money with in the late-1980s/early-1990s and could not afford a MF SLR at that time, and I think that is why many professionals used them. That being said, the quality of images and usefulness of the camera truly approaches even top end MF SLRs for many purposes, and the Mamiya is lighter and easier to use then many of them (6X6 at least). They truly were the best value for the money then, and probably still are if you want a system level 6x6 MF camera. I agree they are heavy relative to other great TLRs, and if I wanted a nice light walking around MF TLR, I would probably agree with your choice of the Rolleicord, or possibly a Rolleiflex, but if I factored in cost, the 'Cord would of course win.
 

Nicholas Lindan

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I'll join the heretical crowd and suggest a folder. A nice Zeiss Nettar with a f4.5 lens and prontor shutter can be had for ~$50 - $15 if you lay in wait. Which should be appealing to someone on a 'tight' budget.

The older 6x4.5 models are tiny.

But 35mm is more suited for street photography.

An advantage of using a TLR for street work is that passerby/subjects think you are navel gazing and pass you by. Walker Evans did a series showing workers getting off shift - he sat in a folding chair on the sidewalk with a TLR on an up-pointing tripod and took pictures as people walked past. https://artblart.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/walker-evans-labor-anonymous-web.jpg https://davidcampany.com/anonymous-and-incognito-walker-evans/ Also in the book Hungry Eye.
 

albireo

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The reason the Mamiya C series was popular for me is that I wanted a MF camera to make money with in the late-1980s/early-1990s and could not afford a MF SLR at that time, and I think that is why many professionals used them. That being said, the quality of images and usefulness of the camera truly approaches even top end MF SLRs for many purposes, and the Mamiya is lighter and easier to use then many of them (6X6 at least). They truly were the best value for the money then, and probably still are if you want a system level 6x6 MF camera.

Thanks - that makes a lot of sense!
 

MattKing

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The Mamiya C330 also really looks impressive in a self-portrait :wink:
(in this case, kitted out with a 135mm lens and a prism finder)
 

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Glausuche

Glausuche

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I'll join the heretical crowd and suggest a folder. A nice Zeiss Nettar with a f4.5 lens and prontor shutter can be had for ~$50 - $15 if you lay in wait. Which should be appealing to someone on a 'tight' budget.

The older 6x4.5 models are tiny.

But 35mm is more suited for street photography.

An advantage of using a TLR for street work is that passerby/subjects think you are navel gazing and pass you by. Walker Evans did a series showing workers getting off shift - he sat in a folding chair on the sidewalk with a TLR on an up-pointing tripod and took pictures as people walked past. https://artblart.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/walker-evans-labor-anonymous-web.jpg https://davidcampany.com/anonymous-and-incognito-walker-evans/ Also in the book Hungry Eye.

As I mentioned in my original post, i have what you're calling a foldable, I.think- the Ansco Viking Readyset..its got a bellows with a lens that fold down flat. I'm still testing my first or 2nd film and I haven't had it CLA'd.
But ultimately, i love the look and feel of the TLR. It has a real vintage feel, and yes, you can take pictures of people without them knowing it.
I figured I'll be well rounded out.

But thanks for the input. I am still learning about all the variations and lenses and this is super educational.
 
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