Looking for advice for lumen printing

[Erik Petersson]

Hello,
I am trying lumen printing, which is great fun. Have a stash of Agfa Brovira long expired which gives interesting enough results. Here are a couple of examples (the purple and yellow one is after fixing).




Ilford Ilfospeed 3.1M Glossy gave very bleak pictures.



When I looked through APUG, I found various advice on how to preserve pre-fixing colours, or how to generally enhance colours. Either toning, or chromoskedasic stabilizer. Perhaps this is what that is:
http://www.freestylephoto.biz/10947-Arista-Premium-BW-Chromo-Stabilizer-32-oz.-For-Chromoskedasic

What would you recommend to start with?

The pre-fixing picture could of course be preserved through “scanning”, a digital procedure which might be a hit in the far future, who knows. But I prefer to work with the exposed paper itself.

I have fixed my pictures in ordinary Ilford rapid fixer. Will this make the picture stable, so that it could be displayed on the wall?

Another question, what papers would you recommend that I buy? The internet is full of different variants.

Thanks in ahead for any advice!

/Erik

 

[cliveh]

For what it's worth, I experimented with Lumen printing with my students. One year I got them to do this in the hight of spring. The results were amazing. In other words, the timing with flower blossoms at the hight of season give the best results.

 

[Erik Petersson]

Well, Scandinavia is no good place for sun printing in the autumn, I am afraid. Not much sun, but spring is soon upon us, right?

 

[winger]

I've done a few lumen prints. Fallen leaves can be good, too. I have one here that I fixed with Ilford Rapid fixer and I'm fairly sure it hasn't changed in appearance since then (about a year and a third?). I can't say with certainty any more than that.
I've usually seen it suggested as a use for old papers and I've mostly done it with papers that I don't believe to be worth printing on by traditional means. So I don't have solid suggestions of what to buy - it might be more of a "use what you find" deal.

I'm hoping to try combining lumen printing and chemigrams.

 

[removed account4]

hi erik

have you seen this article ?
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)
it might help stablize them better ( you will have to experiment a little )
i've never used chromo... but bsdunek, who makes sweet lument prints
has done some of those ( i think ? )
maybe he will see this thread and chime in ...

good luck !
john

 

[NedL]

A few weeks ago, I dipped a lumen print in a solution of 0.8% sodium thiocyanate for 20 seconds before rinsing and fixing in ilford rapid fixer. It still changed in the fixer, but not as much as usual, and I was left with some blues and purples which usually disappear completely in the fixer.

I've got little scraps of test lumen prints and other experiments sitting around in my study where they will get hit by the sun each day. Some of them have been out for 2 or 3 years now. I haven't seen any fading in a lumen print that's been fixed. Don't know about decades though....

 

[Erik Petersson]

A few weeks ago, I dipped a lumen print in a solution of 0.8% sodium thiocyanate for 20 seconds before rinsing and fixing in ilford rapid fixer. It still changed in the fixer, but not as much as usual, and I was left with some blues and purples which usually disappear completely in the fixer.

I've got little scraps of test lumen prints and other experiments sitting around in my study where they will get hit by the sun each day. Some of them have been out for 2 or 3 years now. I haven't seen any fading in a lumen print that's been fixed. Don't know about decades though....

NedL,
I made a quick google search, and sodium thiocyanate appears to sell from Euro 300 and upwards. Its toxic too. This would be reason enough for me to start elsewhere... Or am I mistaken?

/Erik

 

[pdeeh]

MSDS for Sodium thiocyanate doesn't indicate that it's particularly toxic, certainly no more so than most of the photographic chemicals we use all the time.

A quick look on eBay shows it's readily available for about EUR30 for 100g, from within the EU, but then you don't say how many grammes you get for EUR300.

You could try Ammonium or Potassium thiocyanate - easily available, relatively inexpensive (if you can afford regular developers, film and paper, a few hundred grammes of these chemicals are in the same sort of league of pricing, I mean)

Wolfgang Moersch produces stunning lumen prints (look for his work on Ipernity & FLickr) and he fixes them in a version of the chromoskedasic stabiliser. I got the following formula from him:

Water 750ml
Ammonium thiocyanate 200g
Sodium metabisulfite 70g
Acetic acid (5%) 340ml (I can't find the 28% figure but it's easy enough to work out)
Water to 1000ml

Dilute 1:4 for use

I haven't experimented much with this as I got sucked into cyanotypes and salt print, so you'd best make some and see how it goes. Moersch seems to vary the dilution a bit sometimes.

The other thing that is commonly quoted as being good for lumen prints is gold toning ... I can't afford gold toner, so I've no idea how good it is personally, but images I've seen online of gold-toned lumens look pretty good.

 

[pdeeh]

Well, Scandinavia is no good place for sun printing in the autumn, I am afraid. Not much sun, but spring is soon upon us, right?

even Scandinavian autumn light will be enough for making lumen prints, surely?

 

[Erik Petersson]

I'm hoping to try combining lumen printing and chemigrams.

That sounds truly interesting, I hope you post them here for us to see.

 

[Erik Petersson]

even Scandinavian autumn light will be enough for making lumen prints, surely?

Well, the sun get scarce either because of clouds, or of early sunsets. Won't stop me trying though.

 

[Erik Petersson]

A lot of good advice here, thanks everyone.

I will write to Wolfgang Moersch and buy some chromoskedasic stabilizer from him. Maybe sodium thiosulfate too. I understand that these may help to preserve colours; they do not replace the fixer.

I have looked through quite a lot of Moersch’s and also John Fobes’. He has literally thousands of lumens on flickr, well worth checking. He often writes that the prints are fixed with sodium thiosulfate. Another chemical! I suppose that I have to experiment myself what works best, unless some of you could advice.

Another question, is it possible to predict the effect of toners on the lumen? The Ilford paper above that turned beige might be interesting if it had another colour, that’s what I am thinking.

Thanks again!

 

[winger]

A lot of good advice here, thanks everyone.

I will write to Wolfgang Moersch and buy some chromoskedasic stabilizer from him. Maybe sodium thiosulfate too. I understand that these may help to preserve colours; they do not replace the fixer.

I have looked through quite a lot of Moersch’s and also John Fobes’. He has literally thousands of lumens on flickr, well worth checking. He often writes that the prints are fixed with sodium thiosulfate. Another chemical! I suppose that I have to experiment myself what works best, unless some of you could advice.

Another question, is it possible to predict the effect of toners on the lumen? The Ilford paper above that turned beige might be interesting if it had another colour, that’s what I am thinking.

Thanks again!

Sodium thiosulfate is commonly found in non rapid fixer. Rapid fixer has ammonium thiosulfate. John Fobes is either using it straight or regular, non-rapid fixer and just shortening the name. It's also called hypo.

 

[Erik Petersson]

Oh, I get it. Sodium thiosulfate is the fixer.

 

[pdeeh]

Strictly speaking, a stabiliser does - or at least can - replace fixer.

It acts rather differently to a fixer, but it should prevent deterioration of the image just as a fixer does.

Don't wash the print after using stabiliser though.

 

[Erik Petersson]

Ok, so the process is
- exposure
- wash

So far it is clear. But it seems to branch out here:
- fixer + wash = ok. This is what I have done so far.

- chromoskedasic stabiliser + no wash?
- chromoskedasic stabiliser + fixer + wash or no wash?

 

[DannL.]

If you haven't already, Photograms are another branch of this craft that you should find interesting. The difference being that you needn't use the sun or odd chemistry, and the exposures can be very short. Staining, tinting, hand-coloring, and toners can be used. And using your photogram as a negative to produce positive prints is another route that can be taken.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photogram

https://www.google.com/search?q=pho...YQsARqFQoTCNvCkuPn6scCFcSCPgod3TUK8w&dpr=1.25

 

[Bob Carnie]

I am waiting for Ginette to post here , I believe she does these types of prints and her work is awesome.

 

[pdeeh]

Ok, so the process is
- exposure
- wash

So far it is clear. But it seems to branch out here:
- fixer + wash = ok. This is what I have done so far.

- chromoskedasic stabiliser + no wash?
- chromoskedasic stabiliser + fixer + wash or no wash?

I wouldn't overthink this, Erik. I'm just adding some technical info derived from what little I have read and understood about photochemistry.

We'd need a PE, a Gerald Koch or an Ian Grant to take an interest and to properly characterise what's going on with lumen prints.

There's no "right" way to make, fix, stabilise or whatever a lumen print.

FWIW a stabiliser converts residual halides in the emulsion to stable complexes that are not washed out of the emulsion. A fixer converts the residuals to a soluble complex which is then washed out.
(I'm paraphrasing from Mason's book on photochemistry)

 

[NedL]

Don't wash the print after using stabiliser though.

That bit is a little complicated, isn't it? I think you're exactly right that if you only use sodium or ammonium thiocyanate "stabilizer", then you would not wash afterwards. ( Similar to William Jolly's advise to use sodium thiocyanate instead of fixer to help preserve the colors in a chromoskedasic print ).

What I did was a little different, in that I dipped it in the thiocyanate briefly, then washed, then fixed normally. I have not yet tried only using the stabilizer.

And Bob, I just happened to discover Ginette's site a couple days ago, you're right, absolutely wonderful.

 

[Ginette]

I am waiting for Ginette to post here , I believe she does these types of prints and her work is awesome.

[ ...] And Bob, I just happened to discover Ginette's site a couple days ago, you're right, absolutely wonderful.

Thanks both for your good comments about my work. Yes you can see a lot of my lumen project on my website (link in my sig) but as it is in French and that my English is not very good, I will refer you to this English page about me http://www.ginetteclement.com/about-me/
If you wish to look at the lumens, there is a slideshow here http://www.ginetteclement.com/projet/lumen/ or you can see them also in the online Boutique individually in larger size http://www.ginetteclement.com/shop/
Globally my project start in a period of my life where I concentrate a lot on what I'm eating. I lost a lot of weight in the last 2 years and this lumen project is about nutrition and body image. I only use fruits and vegetables that grow in my garden. So I cannot really comment about the best flowers as I don't used.

For the technique now, I try a lot of things in chemistry.
First, I must said that I'm a purist in traditional photography so a lumen print not fixed (scanned) is not really a lumen print for me. I took a digital picture of each lumen when I do it but only as a reference.
I don't see any difference in rapid fix (amonium thiosulfate) or in sodium thiosulfate.
I tried the Chromoskedasic kit but I got silver mirroing effect that I don't like.
Amonium thiocyanate are available alone this can be an option for the stabilizer effect. Or Adox Adostab (Agfa Sistan) is an image stabilizer that contain Amonium thiocyanate. Safety data sheet can be found here.
I was thinking to use toners in this lumen project, but I like what I got without any toners than for the moment I don't use them.
Final step, I wash fully the fiber base prints except for the Adox Adostab a wetting agent and stabilizer to be used at the end of the wash. But you can try it also before the fix to compare if it help conserving the original colours. But for me preserving the original colours is not a goal.

For me it is the choice of paper that will give significative differences.
Usually warmtone papers give the more colorful results. The 2 images I post in the lumen group (there was a url link here which no longer exists) are done on Forte Polywarmtone and of Ilford Warmtone.
Don't be afraid to try expired papers, it don't make any difference for me. I ask on this forum for old fogged papers and George send me enveloppes of Kodak Polymax marked "Very very fogged" and look at the image I post him on his paper (there was a url link here which no longer exists) I don't know how I can have white on a very fogged paper! Not very colored but I love this image (it is swiss chard)
So I recommend you some papers: Forte Polywarmtone (if you can found it) or the older Fortezo are the more colorful, some older Bergger is also Fortezo. Very interesting tones: Ilfomar, Luminos, Agfa Portriga, Oriental warmtone receipe changed over decades, so don't be afraid to try very old papers! Among those that still in production: Ilford Warmtone, Ilford Art300, Adox Variotone, Foma Fomatone.
I note all papers that I used so if you see something on my website, just PM and I will tell what paper it is.

Also about the sun not enough in Scandinavia, I'm in Quebec and I simply left my lumen a day to sun. Don't be afraid to leave them longer even if they look very dark.
I think lumen is a lot of experimentation, % of very good prints is not very high.

I will have a show starting tomorrow in Montreal, eight photographers doing alternative work, mine is lumen prints. For those near Montreal, details are on my website, Show is called "Autrement en photographie / Other ways in photography".
A nice publication will be launched at the same time. Cover of the publication is also on my website (with the nice cherries picture), bilingual publication so you can read some info on the back cover. Click on the image to have it larger and can read it.

Nice topic, it is interesting to compare our methods.
Maybe someone can help me about a problem I have with a specific paper. It is with the Agfa Portriga, gelatin seems too soft and it dissolve. Any hardener receipe for papers.

 

[NedL]

Thank you!

 

[pdeeh]

That bit is a little complicated, isn't it? I

you bet, Mr. L ... which is why I emphasised that from my point of view there are no "right" or "wrong" ways to handle something like a lumen print (or indeed do anything in photography, although that's a hornet's nest in itself )

The point is that here we have a material being put to a use for which it was never designed, but it so happens produces very pleasing results. So it's an entirely empirically derived application - we just have to do "what works" in whatever way gives us the result we want, but it's very much chacun à son goût .

Thus for Ginette, a lumen print isn't a proper print if it isn't fixed .. but for other people (I can think of one person in particular) part of the beauty of a lumen print is that it is impermanent and he captures the fleeting existence of it with camera or scanner.

I actually started a thread the other day (there was a url link here which no longer exists) before this one seeking clarification about what actually goes on, photochemically, in a lumen print, hoping that PE or Gerald or perhaps Rudy or Ian would chime in ... but the only respondent so far has been Erik saying he didn't know anything

 

[removed account4]

Thanks both for your good comments about my work. Yes you can see a lot of my lumen project on my website (link in my sig) but as it is in French and that my English is not very good, I will refer you to this English page about me http://www.ginetteclement.com/about-me/
If you wish to look at the lumens, there is a slideshow here http://www.ginetteclement.com/projet/lumen/ or you can see them also in the online Boutique individually in larger size http://www.ginetteclement.com/shop/
Globally my project start in a period of my life where I concentrate a lot on what I'm eating. I lost a lot of weight in the last 2 years and this lumen project is about nutrition and body image. I only use fruits and vegetables that grow in my garden. So I cannot really comment about the best flowers as I don't used.

For the technique now, I try a lot of things in chemistry.
First, I must said that I'm a purist in traditional photography so a lumen print not fixed (scanned) is not really a lumen print for me. I took a digital picture of each lumen when I do it but only as a reference.
I don't see any difference in rapid fix (amonium thiosulfate) or in sodium thiosulfate.
I tried the Chromoskedasic kit but I got silver mirroing effect that I don't like.
Amonium thiocyanate are available alone this can be an option for the stabilizer effect. Or Adox Adostab (Agfa Sistan) is an image stabilizer that contain Amonium thiocyanate. Safety data sheet can be found here.
I was thinking to use toners in this lumen project, but I like what I got without any toners than for the moment I don't use them.
Final step, I wash fully the fiber base prints except for the Adox Adostab a wetting agent and stabilizer to be used at the end of the wash. But you can try it also before the fix to compare if it help conserving the original colours. But for me preserving the original colours is not a goal.

For me it is the choice of paper that will give significative differences.
Usually warmtone papers give the more colorful results. The 2 images I post in the lumen group (there was a url link here which no longer exists) are done on Forte Polywarmtone and of Ilford Warmtone.
Don't be afraid to try expired papers, it don't make any difference for me. I ask on this forum for old fogged papers and George send me enveloppes of Kodak Polymax marked "Very very fogged" and look at the image I post him on his paper (there was a url link here which no longer exists) I don't know how I can have white on a very fogged paper! Not very colored but I love this image (it is swiss chard)
So I recommend you some papers: Forte Polywarmtone (if you can found it) or the older Fortezo are the more colorful, some older Bergger is also Fortezo. Very interesting tones: Ilfomar, Luminos, Agfa Portriga, Oriental warmtone receipe changed over decades, so don't be afraid to try very old papers! Among those that still in production: Ilford Warmtone, Ilford Art300, Adox Variotone, Foma Fomatone.
I note all papers that I used so if you see something on my website, just PM and I will tell what paper it is.

Also about the sun not enough in Scandinavia, I'm in Quebec and I simply left my lumen a day to sun. Don't be afraid to leave them longer even if they look very dark.
I think lumen is a lot of experimentation, % of very good prints is not very high.

I will have a show starting tomorrow in Montreal, eight photographers doing alternative work, mine is lumen prints. For those near Montreal, details are on my website, Show is called "Autrement en photographie / Other ways in photography".
A nice publication will be launched at the same time. Cover of the publication is also on my website (with the nice cherries picture), bilingual publication so you can read some info on the back cover. Click on the image to have it larger and can read it.

Nice topic, it is interesting to compare our methods.
Maybe someone can help me about a problem I have with a specific paper. It is with the Agfa Portriga, gelatin seems too soft and it dissolve. Any hardener receipe for papers.

hi ginette
love your work ( still )
and thanks for your detailed post !

john

 

[Erik Petersson]

Ginette,

I looked through your lumens, and was really impressed by the complex compositions and their beauty. Thanks for showing them, and for offering your advice here too.

After showing the examples in my original post to a co-worker, she wanted to buy lumen prints with azaleas, if I could make them. That is an excellent way to get started, is it not? I hope to post any progress here too, if successful.

After reading your post was became inspired and arranged some papers on my balcony with onions and peppers. The prints are kind of ugly, but I guess I learned something anyway. Off to fixing them now.

thanks again everyone for your advice