Looking for a MF SLR

[L Gebhardt]

I am looking for a medium format SLR system to serve as a general purpose camera. I currently have a Mamiya 7 which I have no complaints about, other than the usual range finder issues (no graduated filters, trouble focusing long lenses, close focus parallax). With it I have the 65mm and the 150mm lens. The 65mm is tack sharp and I think the best lens I own in any format with regards to contrast and sharpness. But this system really isn't right for many photos I want to take, so I end up lugging the 4x5 system or a 35mm systems depending on which is more right for the situation. I also have several 4x5 cameras and a Nikon N80 with a couple of nice prime lenses and a few zooms. Plus a digital D100, but I don't really ever shoot "art" with it.

There are however a lot of times I wish I had a medium format SLR. I want a larger negative than 35mm. I generally enlarge to between 11x14 and 20x24 and 35mm doesn't cut it for me past about 8x10. If I can take the picture with the Mamiya 7 or the 4x5 I am usually very happy with the quality of the enlargements I am able to achieve. So I think a medium format SLR would be fine for me as far as enlargement size goes. I find in many situations I get more keepers when I shoot faster. Sometimes I am just impatient, but other times I like to make many setups and try to improve on the last. For me this works best through the camera and 4x5 slows me down. Other times I need a camera I can get down on the floor with to interact with the kids.

I want the camera for mainly portraits and landscapes. I am thinking for portraits I would use the camera mostly handheld, and some tripod use. Flash sync speed may be important in the future, but I don't currently use a flash much. Having a waist level finder would be nice, as I like not hiding behind the camera. As such it should either be 6x6 or have a rotating back. For landscapes I would probably want the option of a prism finder to gain height on the tripod. Interchangeable backs are a must as I frequently shoot a color and a black and white version of the same image in 4x5. Tilts are the main movement I use in 4x5 and if they were available in medium format that would be great (I think the Rollei SL66 has this - I don't know of others).

I usually print 8x10 aspect ratio which makes 6x7 appealing, but I am also quite fond of the square and when I used a 6x6 folder a lot I mainly printed square as well. I think either would work for me.

So far the systems I have found that look like they might work are: Hasselblad 500/501 (don't know the difference), Bronica SQ, Bronica GS, Mamiya RZ67/RB67, Rollei SL66 or 6000 series. I haven't even held any of these cameras and I don't know of a place around me where I could. So I may have to buy sight unseen and hope I can sell it for what I paid (this usually works out).

On paper the Mamiya RZ67 seems to be calling me with the combination of price and negative size. The Bronica SQ and GS look good as well, though I don't know if the back rotates on the GS. I am not sure I can afford a Hasselblad system, but I haven't really priced them out because all the available lenses confused me. What I am worried about most with the Mamiya systems is the bulk of the system. The one I saw years ago in a display case looked massive, but at the time I was using small 35mm systems so maybe it really isn't as large as it is in my memory. I'm not sure if weight is an important issue.

Sorry for rambling, but I would like your opinions on systems to meet my needs.

As an aside, I am going to the APUG conference and if anyone is going to bring one of these systems there I would love to have the chance to see it. That is if I don't buy it first to bring with me.

Thanks,

Larry

 

[Nicole]

Larry, take a look at the Pentax 645 NII for speed if it's not to small a neg for you, otherwise the blads are simply beautiful.

 

[jp80874]

Stay with Mamiya and the format with an RZ67.
I have one and can try to answer questions altho I have been shooting 8x10 the last year and may be a little hazy. Possibly a current user could help you more.

John Powers

 

[Travis Nunn]

I can throw my recommendation for the RB67 out there. Since I purchased it, I rarely use my 645 anymore. It is a bit heavy and bulky, but damn its worth it! You can try purchasing from KEH, they have a very nice return policy if you don't like what you buy.

 

[epatsellis]

I'd second the RB suggestion, especially with the current low prices (I'm expanding my lens collection). I've been using the same RB for nearly 20 years, and other than the usual maintainance, it's been a champ.

 

[Paul Sorensen]

I also love my RB, and they are really cheap right now. I don't do a lot of hand held shooting with it, however, so that might make a difference for you. I would try one out if you can before you buy one and find that it is too large for you to comfortably hand hold.

 

[Soeren]

If flashsync is important you might not want the SL66 since it has a focal plane shutter. That would rule out my precious Pentax 6X7 as well though you can find leaf shutter lenses for that one (I don't know about the SL 66)
You also talk about tilt but the most common movement in MF lenses is shift. You may find tilt lenses but I havn't heard of any.

I can recommend the Bronica SQA-i as a great portrait and landscape camera in 6X6. Its cheap and good quality.
I really like my Pentax 6X7 for landscapes and closeups, Havn't tried it for portraits yet. I have seen the Mamiya RB67 in action for handheld portraits and though its a great camera it looked like the photog had a hard time The still lifes and portraits taken with it on tripod where great though. Both the Pentax and Mamiya are heavy cameras, the 6X6 Bronica and Hasselblad a bit lighter. I find the handling of my Pentax very easy and straightforvard. Used handheld with prismfinder the shutter is where you want it to be and shooting quickly is no problem just like your Mamiya 7. Used at waistlevel I'd prefer the Bronica and used on a tripod there is no important difference.
The Bronica offers a wider range of shutterspeeds and more options regarding MLU (which can't be canceled on the P67 once activated) and a T-setting.
Cheers Søren

 

[haris]

In your post Larry it is obvious you are toward Mamiya, even if you mention other systems. And since you mentioned few times rotating backs, it is clear that Mamiya RB or RZ is what you are looking for, and you ask only a little confirmation that you made good choice

I belive it is good choice...

 

[L Gebhardt]

Nicole, I do want to stick with 6x6 or larger, as I am not sure that 645 will be large enough for landscape work. I should also add that I don't want autofocus, as it never seems to work for me. So a good focus screen seems important as well.

For those with the Mamiya RBs why would you choose the RB over the RZ?

I assume the shift on the cameras can also be used for rise - is this true?

 

[Soeren]

Yes shift is = lens rise and/or fall
The RZ is electronic IRRC the RB is mechanical.
Cheers Søren

 

[Ted Harris]

Larry,

I am a real fan of the SL66. Especially if you are interesterd in doing a bit of landscape work the bellows and tilt are very useful.

See my PM.

 

[Phillip P. Dimor]

I've used Mamiya RB's, they are too big for me. I've used (and own) a Hasselblad 503cx. It's a great camera system, the fit and finish are outstanding. It can be expensive but if you purchase used (KEH bargain grade is what I bought) it isn't as bad.

I own a Pentax 645 and have used it for about four years. This is the one that I REALLY use. It is FAST. It is conveinent. It does not break. It is inexpensive (compared to Hasselblad) and the lenses are OUTSTANDING.
It's kind of a pain to use on a tripod with a cable release.
The later Pentax 645N and NII solve this with that electronic cable release.

The 75mm Pentax lens easily performs as well as if not better than the Zeiss C 80mm (mine looks coated too..) *shrug* If you don't mind the 645 format, i'd say it's worth a good look.

 

[benjiboy]

I think using the parameters you have I would think either the Mamiya RB67 or RZ 67 would fit the bill, however on the RB there is no interlock between the film wind and the shutter cocking so you have to remember wind the film after each exposure. The RZ body is quite a bit lighter, has an electronic shutter and is battery dependant, but has the film wind shutter cocking interlock.

 

[Travis Nunn]

...For those with the Mamiya RBs why would you choose the RB over the RZ?...

Honestly, cost was the selling point for me. I put my entire system together for less than $1000. That includes a Pro-S body, two film backs, metered prism, waistlevel finder, a 65mm, 90mm and 180mm lenses (all C lenses).

 

[rbarker]

Years ago, I bought into the Hassy system for MF work. Aside from the few compositions that actually work as squares, however, I think of it as a 645 that doesn't need to be rotated, as in most cases I crop to something close to 8x10 or 11x14 anyway. For me, the interchangeable backs, the lens quality, and overall systems design approach of the Hassy were deciding factors.

As noted, there is a huge advantage to leaf shutters in the lens, as opposed to focal plane shutters when it comes to flash sync. This is particularly true when using flash fill in ambient light, as the sync speed with most MF focal plane shutters is usually around 1/60 or so. Far too limiting in most situations, as that doesn't allow balancing where you want between flash and ambient.

Since then (when I bought into the Hassy system), both Mamiya and Bronica lenses have improved greatly, diminishing the advantage of Zeiss lenses on the Hassy. Thus, my suggestion would be to try to handle several of your top potential choices to see which feels best to you. A 6x7 neg is a big advantage, but the bulk and weight of a 6x7 SLR camera and lens could be a killer for you.

 

[avandesande]

I am a big guy but even with a decent bracket my hands shake when doing handhelds with the RB(too damn heavy). I think the RZ might be lighter but not built so solid. It is a great tripod camera though.

 

[haris]

And RB (bodies, lenses, magazines and rest) is (are) cheaper than RZ.

Another important difference is: With RB you must cock shooter with lever on body and separately advance film with lever on magazine.

With RZ you can avance film with cocking shutter lever on body, but if you want you have option to separately advance film with advance knob on magazine.

You have instruction manuals for dowload on www.mamiya.com, so you can check...

 

[epatsellis]

At the time I bought my RB system, ca. 1982, the RZ wasn't even an option, if I recall correctly.

For those with the Mamiya RBs why would you choose the RB over the RZ?

 

[haris]

I don't know older versions, but on RB proS magazine versions, there is lever for single/multiple exposures. So, if you leave magazine on single exposure position, you will not ruin photo with multiple exposure. Shooter will not fire if you don't advance film, so there is not much problem with separately advancing film and cocking shooter for RB camera...

Only, magazines are maybe weakest parts (regarding bulit) of RB system, that means if you don't have properly working magazine, and preventing double exposure lever don't work properly, then... I know, on one of my magazines that lever doesn't work...

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Another factor to consider in the RB/RZ debate.... only some of the RB/RZ mount lenses will work on the RB because there are no electronics in the body. If you are looking for a camera that is handheld, the RB/RZ is NOT the camera for you. If 6x7 is the desired film format, look at a Pentax 67II. If format is not a requirement, then the Hasselblad would be my #1 choice. It is significantly lighter than an RB or RZ. More lenses, more accessories. On the used market, you can get lenses, bodies and accessories for reasonable prices, and they'll hold their value much better than just about any other medium format camera system.

One of my photo professors when I was taking classes at Maryland Institute told me a story about his Mamiya RZ - he had one with the motor winder, prism, etc. He had been itching to go photograph at Longwood Gardens for ages, but they would never let him bring a tripod, so he couldn't take his 4x5. He got the RZ with the motor winder and a hand grip, and went to shoot. He spent an entire day shooting with it handheld. His hand was tired and sore at the end of the day. He figured it would be fine, it was just tired from holding that big camera. He woke up the next morning, and his wrist was the size of an especially fat orange, numb and tingly, and he couldn't move it. It took a week for the swelling to go down and full motor control to come back. That was all from the hauling the RZ around and shooting macro work handheld for an entire day.

Granted, thats an extreme example - probably wouldn't happen to everyone, or even most people, but it does illustrate the fact that an RZ with accessories is NOT a light or compact camera. It is not meant for one-handed operation. You can shoot a Hassy with one hand only.

 

[haris]

Oh, I forgot. In my country we have one problems with buying secondhand Mamiya RB cameras. Those cameras were "standard" gear in photo labs, which in past times were used for making photographs for documents (passports, ID cards, etc...) and other . And those cameras never left those shops, they are used only indoors on tripods. So, we can find cameras which looks great, not slightest scratch or anything on body, but inside camera and its mechanism is completely ruined of long years of hard work...

Maybe something to consider when buying camera...

 

[Lee Shively]

You're already set up for 6x7, so I would go with the Mamiya RB/RZ if I were you.

 

[L Gebhardt]

Thanks for all the advice. I'm not sure how much closer I am to making a decision, but I have some more to think about.

 

[titrisol]

Bronicas are selling very chepa and are excellent cameras.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Bronicas are selling very chepa and are excellent cameras.

Unfortunately there's a very good reason for that. Bronicas are no longer supported. They've been out of production for a couple years now.