Looking for a good coating paper

[M Carter]

Long story, but essentially the paper that's worked best for me is the BACK of fixed-out fiber paper. The process I'm using requires the paper to dry on glass for best results, and the gelatin/emulsion just glues itself to the glass. I'm looking for a printmaking paper, can hold up to wet processing, with no coating but exceptionally smooth.

Arche Platine has far too much texture for me. Can anyone tell me what Hahnemühle Platinum Rag is like as far as texture? I've had good luck coating the back side of Canson Baryta, but when wet-on-glass, the coating turns to glue as well - so heavy/rag inkjet papers may work.

I'll order up samples of suggestions, but I could spend a small fortune on sample packs, hoping to dial in some candidates - thanks all!

 

[Alan9940]

I haven't used Arches Platine for many years, but Platinum Rag is my primary paper for pt/pd printing. If you hold the paper at an oblique angle to a strong light, you will see some "texture" to the paper; one side has just a tad more than the obverse. That said, I'd call Platinum Rag a very smooth paper. If you contact Hahnemuhle, they will send you a couple of sheets for postage.

 

[koraks]

The only thing I can say, is look beyond the papers that are specifically intended for (alt. process) photography. The papers I personally like the most for *whatever* (although admittedly not your particular application) tend to be etching papers. The product offering will vary considerably geographically; for instance, I mostly use papers from a local manufacturer, but I don't think they can easily be bought in the US.

If you happen to have a physical arts supplies store near you that stocks a selection of art papers, it can be worth it to pay them a visit and take home a couple of sheets that look promising. It's what I've done from time to time, and while most papers turn out not to be ideal, I've found a couple of 'keepers' this way. Besides, the experience of going through those different papers is rewarding in itself...

 

[removedacct1]

I don't know if its something you've considered trying or not, but I have an unopened box of Adox Baryta 12X16 (purchased for a collodio-chloride project I never pursued) that I'd like to sell.

 

[fgorga]

Long story, but essentially the paper that's worked best for me is the BACK of fixed-out fiber paper. The process I'm using requires the paper to dry on glass for best results, and the gelatin/emulsion just glues itself to the glass. I'm looking for a printmaking paper, can hold up to wet processing, with no coating but exceptionally smooth.

Arche Platine has far too much texture for me. Can anyone tell me what Hahnemühle Platinum Rag is like as far as texture? I've had good luck coating the back side of Canson Baryta, but when wet-on-glass, the coating turns to glue as well - so heavy/rag inkjet papers may work.

I'll order up samples of suggestions, but I could spend a small fortune on sample packs, hoping to dial in some candidates - thanks all!

Hahn. Pt. Rag is very smooth, about as smooth as most plate finish Bristol board.

Other traditional printmaking papers that are pretty smooth are Lenox 100 and Stonehenge, both from Legion Paper.

Another very smooth paper is Fabriano Artistico Hot Press watercolor paper.

Lastly, you might consider Strathmore 500 series Bristol board, it comes in a plate finish that it very smooth and it is 100% cotton.

Do note that all of these papers except for the Pt Rag contain carbonate buffers which must be removed by treating with acid before using for some processes.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Something in the Heritage Woodfree range might work - the pulp seems to be very similar to that used in silver gelatin papers - and is designed for use in photographic conservation etc. Here's a link to an unbuffered form of it. Talas or somewhere like that might be worth a look.

 

[M Carter]

Hahn. Pt. Rag is very smooth, about as smooth as most plate finish Bristol board.

Other traditional printmaking papers that are pretty smooth are Lenox 100 and Stonehenge, both from Legion Paper.

Another very smooth paper is Fabriano Artistico Hot Press watercolor paper.

Lastly, you might consider Strathmore 500 series Bristol board, it comes in a plate finish that it very smooth and it is 100% cotton.

Do note that all of these papers except for the Pt Rag contain carbonate buffers which must be removed by treating with acid before using for some processes.

Something in the Heritage Woodfree range might work - the pulp seems to be very similar to that used in silver gelatin papers - and is designed for use in photographic conservation etc. Here's a link to an unbuffered form of it. Talas or somewhere like that might be worth a look.

Thanks guys, I'll check into those - research has also pointed me to Legion Rising drawing bristol, which is available by the sheet vs. boxes/rolls so I've ordered a couple. My grand daughter will be thrilled with the piles of paper samples I've built up.

BTW, I'm making 16x20 Bromoil paper using commercial emulsions (Foma primarily) so buffering doesn't seem to be an issue.

And man, while it didn't work out well for Bromoil, Canson's Baryta inkjet paper - I got some of the most lovely B&W prints I've ever made on that with the Foma emulsion. Too "slippery" for Bromoil, but I was amazed that it held up to all those wet-dry cycles so well. Really nice paper and the prints just had a "weight" and presence that blew away any darkroom papers I've used. Too bad coating is such a pricey b*tch, and fixed-grade can be tough!!! Seriously, Foma's emulsion is a heck of a product when you dial it in.

 

[M Carter]

I don't know if its something you've considered trying or not, but I have an unopened box of Adox Baryta 12X16 (purchased for a collodio-chloride project I never pursued) that I'd like to sell.

I've tried Baryta paper - too "slippery" for Bromoil, but thanks. I have a roll of Canson inkjet Baryta, and it's made gorgeous prints with Foma emulsion, not great for Bromoil though.

 

[M Carter]

The only thing I can say, is look beyond the papers that are specifically intended for (alt. process) photography. The papers I personally like the most for *whatever* (although admittedly not your particular application) tend to be etching papers. The product offering will vary considerably geographically; for instance, I mostly use papers from a local manufacturer, but I don't think they can easily be bought in the US.

If you happen to have a physical arts supplies store near you that stocks a selection of art papers, it can be worth it to pay them a visit and take home a couple of sheets that look promising. It's what I've done from time to time, and while most papers turn out not to be ideal, I've found a couple of 'keepers' this way. Besides, the experience of going through those different papers is rewarding in itself...

Indeed, I've gotten fantastic prints from Inkjet Baryta paper, holds up to multiple wet/dry cycles, just gorgeous "straight" prints - but it's too "slippery" for ink replacement work (Bromoil). We have a big art supply store here (Dallas), but all their papers are too textured for me.

 

[sasah zib]

i find that Talas [https://www.talasonline.com/paper-and-board/fine-art/printmaking] is a good source of printmaking supplies.
arches 88 [https://legionpaper.com/arches-88] is good for smooth ink processes.
legion coventry is smooth [https://legionpaper.com/coventry-rag] enough for etching inks
https://legionpaper.com/samples is a good start source for samples should your local stores not have enough

 

[koraks]

We have a big art supply store here (Dallas), but all their papers are too textured for me.

Yes, the hot pressed or calandered ones are often not the most plentiful.

 

[Peter Schrager]

Fabriano artistico hot press..works fine for hand coating
Arnheim 1618 also works
I rate artistico number one
I also coat on fixed out baryta paper.. results vary according to paper base. The best paper I found was an unmarked box that I was gifted
My take is that it was a paper made in Spain
I've spent almost 3 years making emulsions and have tested many papers but the ones above are my favorite

 

[Dan Dozer]

I'm a little confused by your description. Are you doing bromoil prints with FOMA liquid emulsion because that is what I'm doing. I'm using Arches Platine, Hahnemuhle Platinum Rag, and Bergger COT 320. All seem fairly similar in my work. Hahnemuhle is a little softer than Arches if that makes any sense. Bergger seems a little smoother than the other two. If you are doing Bromoil with FOMA - send me a PM so we can compare notes. BTW - I'm publishing a book using this process with liquid emulsion and bromoils. Not done at the publishers yet - should be on the market some time after christmas.

Dan Dozer

 

[M Carter]

I'm a little confused by your description. Are you doing bromoil prints with FOMA liquid emulsion because that is what I'm doing. I'm using Arches Platine, Hahnemuhle Platinum Rag, and Bergger COT 320. All seem fairly similar in my work. Hahnemuhle is a little softer than Arches if that makes any sense. Bergger seems a little smoother than the other two. If you are doing Bromoil with FOMA - send me a PM so we can compare notes. BTW - I'm publishing a book using this process with liquid emulsion and bromoils. Not done at the publishers yet - should be on the market some time after christmas.

Dan Dozer

Yep, but I'm going for a more subtle bromoil look, using foam rollers at 16x20. I have a project that should span the next couple years if I can dial it in. But I'm finding any coating inconsistencies really show up with that style, stuff that seems controllable with the heavier stipple-brush look. And I don't want paper texture, I really want a lot of fine detail and clarity. My best results were on the back of fixed-out fiber paper, a plate finish with no texture and no coating. But dry coating has been too hit and miss, and wet coating I've found that any variance in paper wetness seems to cause coating issues that show up (lighter areas or streaks).

So what's been promising for me is to soak the paper, and tape it to glass with paper tape (the way some guys flatten fiber prints). Let it dry and coat with a blade and rod setup, then trim away the tape when the emulsion is dry. I also found that doing a first subbing of hardened gelatin had issues, where I need the gelatin coat to be broader than the emulsion coat, so where the rod/tape "rides" over the gelatin layer is perfectly flat. (If you wet fixed out paper and put it emulsion-down on glass, it's remarkably glued to the glass and you can only get it off by soaking it). So a couple coats of satin poly spray instead of a gelatin sub, with a very light sanding in-between has solved that - it seals the paper up nicely without making a slippery surface, with a gelatin sub I was getting little bits of fiber rising into the gelatin and hardening.

I have a test going with legion rising, a plate-finish, good weight paper that's (BONUS!!!) available in sheets vs. rolls. Just bleached it, should ink it tomorrow and see if I'm there yet! So far it's held up to lots of wet processing. (I photograph my final bromoils 4x5, and print them with Foma emulsion sprayed on canvas with an HVLP gun, and then tint the canvases with oil paints.

 

[Dan Dozer]

Have you tried using sponges like Emil Schildt does instead of brushes? That is what I use and I can get very even tones and fine detail as well if I work it sufficiently enough. There is a technique to making it work, but it isn't hard. I normally coat with a glass rod so I can get a fairly thick coating (as opposed to brush coating). I'm also doing up to 16 x 20 size prints. This is the image I'm going to use on the cover of my book.

 

[M Carter]

Yes, I have Emil's e-book somewhere; I found I like the foam rollers better. I spread the ink with a brayer and then roll the foam on it, then even out the ink on a sheet of glass. I ink the print with the roller, and by the time the ink is established, the roller then starts smoothing it and building contrast - actual inking takes maybe 45 seconds and 90% done without swapping rollers - I spend more time cleaning up! I may hit dense areas with a hopper or lift a little ink with paper, and then hop or roll those spots, but inking this way is silly-fast.

I've also used liquid light, but that stuff is sooooo freaking flat, in my testing barely makes grade 1 contrast. Unlike Emil, I also use the Foma hardener, but very little compared to intended (like 15ML to a kilo seems to be the intended ratio, I use much less, but it does seem to keep the emulsion a little tougher, yet you still get very deep relief when the paper is wet).

I use a glass rod with 6 wraps of tape, I made a "coating blade" with like 1/16" gap and hold the rod at the open end - that keeps me from having thicker emulsion pool up on the sides, that was a big issue for me.

My other trick is to stick a damp towel in the freezer when I start melting the emulsion. After 5 minutes, I stick the towel in a soft cooler bag, and after I coat, I set the glass on the cold towel - the emulsion sets up very fast that way and then it can be dried vertically.

I inked up an 8x10 of the Legion Rising yesterday and it seems to be what I've been looking for - I was kinda loathe to spend $200 on a box or rolls when I can grab a few sheets as needed. I'd like to get these final canvas prints up to about 50", but that's another story!

 

[Dan Dozer]

I haven't tried the brayer and roller yet, but I'm going to try next time I make some prints. Are you thickening the ink before you use the brayer/roller or using it rigth out of the can? I like your tip on the cold towel. Would be great to have the emulsion set up faster. I've been coating with 8 wraps of tape, but on images with larger areas of white, it leaves the emulsion with a creamy tone so I'm going back to 6 wraps. I haven't used Legion Rising before - might try getting some.

Have you tried the ink from Cranfield or Hanko before? They both seem to go on a little easier for me than American Graphic.

You are the first person in the US that I've found who is doing liquid emulsion seriously - we might be the only two who are. I'll send you a PM with my contact info so we can do Emails rather than on the forum here. Would love to see some of your images.

 

[M Carter]

I can't recall where I got my latest ink, it's the softer 1796 and I don't thicken or thin it. Best tip though, I got some empty paint tubes from Dick Blick and "decanted" all the ink into tubes, now I have a lifetime supply that won't dry out (just clean the threads on the tubes when you're done!) I used some empty toilet paper rolls and taped the open-end of the tubes to them, wore gloves and spread out some newspaper, it was a messy project but man, it makes this a lot easier.

My nuttiest thing was building a spray booth in my darkroom to spray emulsion on canvas. My poor wife, she comes upstairs and I'm building massive sets with plaster all over the damn place, she just shakes her head and disappears.

 

[Dan Dozer]

My wife tollerates my work as well. When we bought our new house that has a casita, she let me have the casita for my darkroom - huge space and it even has it's own bathroom! Photographer's dream darkroom set up.