Looking for a cost efficient quality C-41 kit

[unwantedfocus]

Hello Members,

I have been home developing at home for a while now, mainly black and white because film is expensive (shooting 120).
HC-110 is such a great developer in terms of shelf life. Its cost efficient and gives great results.

Since it's getting summer now and colours are very vibrant. I would like to develop C-41. I used the CineStill c41 powder kits multiple times but don't think it gives me great results (Maybe its an error on my end).

In general I read that using BLIX, 2 Part developers give you worse results than a 3 part developers. I would love to know which c41 Kits you were satisfied with and overall recommendations, also shelf life would be a factor since I don't shoot more than 1-2 roll a week.

best regards

 

[Nodda Duma]

The Arista C41 kit is great. This is an RA-4 contact print off an 8x10 Portra sheet developed in the Arista C-41 kit, after the chems had been stored for a month or so

 

[Donald Qualls]

If you can stand to spend the money up front, Flexicolor LORR (optionally with replenishment of the color developer) is about the most cost-effective you'll ever find. The only potential issue is color developer life, and color developer is the cheap part of the setup anyway -- plus it keeps pretty well (based on what I've read since I mixed mine as two liters, one for tank solution and one for replenisher, I'd recommend mixing the whole five gallons of replenisher and storing it in a wine bladder, whether you replenish or one-shot).

 

[EdSawyer]

Agreed, go with the Kodak chemistry if at all possible. It's the best and the cheapest (by volume).

 

[Sirius Glass]

I use Unicolor1 liter kits from FreeStyle. https://www.freestylephoto.biz/

 

[halfaman]

Since you are in Germany, you can buy in Macodirect and Fotoimpex Compard Digibase kits which I find excellent. The kits made of concentrates, not the 500ml premixed/ready-to-use one. Avilability is intermitent, they are usually sold out before next supply, and process instructions are a bit of a mess. But chemistry quality is fantastic with oustanding shelf life.

 

[unwantedfocus]

The Arista C41 kit is great. This is an RA-4 contact print off an 8x10 Portra sheet developed in the Arista C-41 kit, after the chems had been stored for a month or so

Thank you for the suggestion but I don't think it is available in Germany, at least I couldn't find a seller. Also the EU is kind of hefty when it comes to chemical imports.

If you can stand to spend the money up front, Flexicolor LORR (optionally with replenishment of the color developer) is about the most cost-effective you'll ever find. The only potential issue is color developer life, and color developer is the cheap part of the setup anyway -- plus it keeps pretty well (based on what I've read since I mixed mine as two liters, one for tank solution and one for replenisher, I'd recommend mixing the whole five gallons of replenisher and storing it in a wine bladder, whether you replenish or one-shot).

I read all of your posts in this THREAD and I have to say I don't think I shoot enough to make this whole replenishing project work, I probably will hold on to the thought for now. I will keep watching that thread and it would be cool if you would create your own thread with your whole workflow and experience, I think lots of people would appreciate it.

Since you are in Germany, you can buy in Macodirect and Fotoimpex Compard Digibase kits which I find excellent. The kits made of concentrates, not the 500ml premixed/ready-to-use one. Avilability is intermitent, they are usually sold out before next supply, and process instructions are a bit of a mess. But chemistry quality is fantastic with oustanding shelf life.

I found a comment from you in this THREAD regarding development times.

Overall the kit seems to exactly what I was looking for. I have a few questions regarding the kit, I see on Fotoimpex they offer 3 versions:
1000ml Kit for 39,00 EUR = 28 rolls = 1,39 EUR per roll
2500ml Kit for 49,00 EUR = 50 rolls = 0,98 EUR per roll
5000ml Kit for 69,00 EUR = 100 rolls = 0,69 EUR per roll

Sadly the 1000ml kit is not working out for me since my Tank holds 1250ml for 3x 120 rolls. I would not mind getting the 5000ml kit and divide into 2 batches but I'm not sure if that is a great idea any recommendations? If that option is not working out I would opt for the 2500ml Kit. I read the instructions and there is no specifications for longevity or how long I would be able to store it, is there any info how long this kit holds up?

Thank you for all the recommendations!

 

[Tom Kershaw]

The Fuji Hunt C-41 5 litre kit is worth a look. I'm not sure about 5000ml doing 100 rolls. I use the developer for 4 rolls per litre in my Jobo, the problem with the kits is that the bleach is realistically the expensive component and has a huge capacity compared to the developer. The separates are also much cheaper per film, this dev rep. kit makes 2x10L for example: https://silverprint.co.uk/collections/colour-chemistry/products/xc954693 - you will be able to get the Fuji Hunt products within the EU - they are made in Belgium.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

Thank you for the suggestion but I don't think it is available in Germany, at least I couldn't find a seller. Also the EU is kind of hefty when it comes to chemical imports.



I read all of your posts in this THREAD and I have to say I don't think I shoot enough to make this whole replenishing project work, I probably will hold on to the thought for now. I will keep watching that thread and it would be cool if you would create your own thread with your whole workflow and experience, I think lots of people would appreciate it.



I found a comment from you in this THREAD regarding development times.

Overall the kit seems to exactly what I was looking for. I have a few questions regarding the kit, I see on Fotoimpex they offer 3 versions:
1000ml Kit for 39,00 EUR = 28 rolls = 1,39 EUR per roll
2500ml Kit for 49,00 EUR = 50 rolls = 0,98 EUR per roll
5000ml Kit for 69,00 EUR = 100 rolls = 0,69 EUR per roll

Sadly the 1000ml kit is not working out for me since my Tank holds 1250ml for 3x 120 rolls. I would not mind getting the 5000ml kit and divide into 2 batches but I'm not sure if that is a great idea any recommendations? If that option is not working out I would opt for the 2500ml Kit. I read the instructions and there is no specifications for longevity or how long I would be able to store it, is there any info how long this kit holds up?

Thank you for all the recommendations!

Tetenal makes a c-41 kit that is liquid based. You should be able to at least order that where you're at.

 

[halfaman]

Sadly the 1000ml kit is not working out for me since my Tank holds 1250ml for 3x 120 rolls. I would not mind getting the 5000ml kit and divide into 2 batches but I'm not sure if that is a great idea any recommendations? If that option is not working out I would opt for the 2500ml Kit. I read the instructions and there is no specifications for longevity or how long I would be able to store it, is there any info how long this kit holds up?

As mentioned before, Compard Digibase concentrates have excellent shelf life even opened. The only concentrate you need to worry about is the one having CD-4 which is the Developer Part C. Keep it away from air to prevent oxidation (small crystal bottles filled up, for example), when oxidizing it gets darker from pale yellow to brownish until it is black that means CD-4 is completely dead. The rest of concentrates keeps very well in their bottles with no extra care.

The instructions of the thread are for the 3x500 ml ready-to-use kit, they are not from the concentrates kit. It does not give reutilization times even the number of rolls to develop per volume implies it should be possible. A really deficient set of instructions like I said... Find bellow the file for concentrates kit.

https://www.maco-photo.de/files/images/C41_InstructionManual.pdf

 

[Donald Qualls]

I don't think I shoot enough to make this whole replenishing project work, I probably will hold on to the thought for now. I will keep watching that thread and it would be cool if you would create your own thread with your whole workflow and experience, I think lots of people would appreciate it.

I don't shoot or process a lot of C-41, and at least for the first six months (last process was on WPPD, one roll of NHG800 and one of XP2 Super) my Color Developer was doing fine. I'd say it averages a couple rolls a month. I only mixed one liter of tank solution and one of replenisher, however, and the C component of my Color Developer Replenisher has almost certainly gone off in the bottle by now (replacement Color Developer Replenisher concentrate set is only about $25 plus shipping). When I buy new, I'll mix the whole 5 liters of replenisher, put it in a wine box, and make up two liters of tank solution -- that'll be a couple years' supply of replenisher, and enough tank solution to do 4x5 when I'm ready to spend the money on 4x5 color.

Other than color developer, the other components (bleach and fixer) keep much like B&W chemicals -- in fact, I'm currently using C-41 fixer that I got for nearly free (because it was already old) more than a dozen years ago for my B&W film.

Of course, there's the alternative, to either one-shot the color developer, which is what Kodak recommends (mix the whole 5L replenisher, than make up tank solution using starter and water, fresh for each developing session), which is still fairly economical given the life of the other components, or reuse tank solution with time compensation (I'd use the figures usually given for kits if I did this -- usually add 15 seconds for each roll after the first, up to 8 rolls in a liter, more at your own risk).

 

[koraks]

Since you are in Germany, you can buy in Macodirect and Fotoimpex Compard Digibase kits

Or get some Fuji minilab chemistry from whatever retailer you fancy. I use easymedal.de for this. The stuff keeps well and is cheap on a per roll basis.

 

[halfaman]

Or get some Fuji minilab chemistry from whatever retailer you fancy. I use easymedal.de for this. The stuff keeps well and is cheap on a per roll basis.

Nice tip! I already buy from them some minilab chemistry with very good prices but never realized they sell this kit. This would be the winner for me.

 

[koraks]

I usually take a look at his Ebay listings for leftover stuff. Never had a problem, but saved a few euros doing so.

 

[halfaman]

I usually take a look at his Ebay listings for leftover stuff. Never had a problem, but saved a few euros doing so.

Me too. They have by far the cheapest C41 bleach I have ever seen.

 

[Donald Qualls]

The bad news with C-41 bleach is that it's expensive. The good news is that it has huge capacity and keeps well. And it's a good use for those permeable accordion bottles -- bleach actually likes oxygen; you can partially regenerate it just by frothing it with air. Easy to test, too -- drop in a piece of developed B&W leader; if it doesn't turn white/milky in under five minutes, there's a problem.

 

[mtjade2007]

I saw the word "huge" and could not stop smiling. Yes, it's not exaggerated. Kodak C-41 has a huge capacity. I have a JOBO 1 liter bottle of old bleach from many years ago. I must have used it for a couple of dozens times. I did not toss it down the drain, rather I kept in the bottle. In the past 2 weeks I used it for 8 processing cycles just for curiosity to see how bad it would be. I found no leuco cyan tint on my developed film at all. However, it will eventually have to be exhausted. But it mainly will need a PH adjustment and another simple ingredient to be added. Does anyone know what it is?

 

[mtjade2007]

Is Leuco Cyan Dye colorless? What is the symptom of incomplete bleaching on the film?

 

[Mr Bill]

Is Leuco Cyan Dye colorless? What is the symptom of incomplete bleaching on the film?

Yep, it's colorless; you can't just look at it and see it. It's just a shortage of cyan dye.

In commercial processing the assumption is that if the bleach is ok then there will not be any leuco dye. So the main effort goes into making sure the bleach is ok. Now the question is, how do you know if the bleach is ok? The standard method is to process a piece of specially exposed film, aka a "control strip," and use an instrument called a densitometer to see if you got the proper amount of cyan dye. There's more to it than that, but my point is that the standard method is to make sure the bleach is ok, then you just presume that the film is also ok, at least with respect to cyan leuco dye.

Now, if someone were to hand you a piece of film, and ask if it had any leuco dye, the standard test would be to rebleach (and refix, and wash, etc.) to see if the cyan dye increases. If it DOES then the assumption is that it DID have some leuco dye. This test should be done with a "known good" bleach.

I should probably say something about what IS a leuco cyan dye. It's essentially an "incomplete dye," one that has not been fully oxidized. So if you put it in the good bleach, this finishes oxidizing it, and it is now a complete cyan dye. But... if you use a fixer with too low pH you can allegedly convert some cyan dye back into a leuco dye.. Fwiw there was a time when most color negative films were susceptible to this, but later dyes were mostly immune to this.

For small scale processing the safe thing is to just follow the directions for the bleach. If you want to push things farther then it behooves you to periodically test. Which probably the easiest method is to periodically clip off a short piece of film and rebleach, etc., then butt it back against the the original film over a light table. If you can visually see ANY difference then there is a problem with your bleach (or fix).

 

[Mr Bill]

<continued> I accidentally posted before I was ready, so here's a bit more...

There are several things that can make a bleach go "bad." First is that it got used too much and has lost its bleaching power - it no longer has enough oxidizing power. You can restore this by aerating the bleach - put it in an oversized bottle and shake it up, for example. In a commercial processor it is standard to actually aerate in the machine. A second issue is that the bleach gradually becomes diluted by "carryover" from the previous tank. Amateur processing is especially bad for this because the film is not squeegee, plus the film reels and tank carry over a lot more liquid. Commercial processing is generally "replenished," by which the bleach in the processing tank is kept at the spec strength (this won't properly work with reel and tank processing because the solution carryover is far greater). Nevertheless, anyone who wants to monitor the dilution could do so by measuring the specific gravity of the bleach (use a hydrometer in a clear cylinder). The pH of the bleach will also be affected, so would ideally be checked periodically. Finally the last major issue - whenever you bleach metallic silver in the film you convert it back to silver bromide; the bromide comes from the bleach itself, so even if you keep the bleach aerated you could still run out bromide. Commercially this would not happen because the replenisher keeps everything in spec.

Anyway, the amateur is largely on their own when trying to extend bleach usage. For serious work I'd suggest use of a hydrometer and pH meter, along with use of a replenisher (I'm guessing that this makes sense, but not certain - it might be that excess carryover removes most of the economic benefit?). And then periodically check your actual processing by rebleaching short clips. And whenever you handle the bleach make sure it gets a little aeration.

Ps. I did not mention retained silver - this will probably show up as an early problem. If one has an infrared scope this will be obvious by viewing the film in the dark (under IR light source).

 

[AgX]

With all these advices one should keep in mind that overseas import of such kits would dramatically increase the price if such shipping is possible at all.

Amongst the european products italian Axelcolor has been hinted at here as an economic offer.

 

[foc]

Ps. I did not mention retained silver - this will probably show up as an early problem. If one has an infrared scope this will be obvious by viewing the film in the dark (under IR light source).

Another simple method for checking retained silver (although it would be fairly advanced) is if the negs look dense and when you view the negative from the emulsion side and you swivel the neg towards the light, you should get what appears to be a positive image. If you can see that then you would need to rebleach the neg.

 

[mtjade2007]

<continued> I accidentally posted before I was ready, so here's a bit more...

There are several things that can make a bleach go "bad." First is that it got used too much and has lost its bleaching power - it no longer has enough oxidizing power. You can restore this by aerating the bleach - put it in an oversized bottle and shake it up, for example. In a commercial processor it is standard to actually aerate in the machine. A second issue is that the bleach gradually becomes diluted by "carryover" from the previous tank. Amateur processing is especially bad for this because the film is not squeegee, plus the film reels and tank carry over a lot more liquid. Commercial processing is generally "replenished," by which the bleach in the processing tank is kept at the spec strength (this won't properly work with reel and tank processing because the solution carryover is far greater). Nevertheless, anyone who wants to monitor the dilution could do so by measuring the specific gravity of the bleach (use a hydrometer in a clear cylinder). The pH of the bleach will also be affected, so would ideally be checked periodically. Finally the last major issue - whenever you bleach metallic silver in the film you convert it back to silver bromide; the bromide comes from the bleach itself, so even if you keep the bleach aerated you could still run out bromide. Commercially this would not happen because the replenisher keeps everything in spec.

Anyway, the amateur is largely on their own when trying to extend bleach usage. For serious work I'd suggest use of a hydrometer and pH meter, along with use of a replenisher (I'm guessing that this makes sense, but not certain - it might be that excess carryover removes most of the economic benefit?). And then periodically check your actual processing by rebleaching short clips. And whenever you handle the bleach make sure it gets a little aeration.

Ps. I did not mention retained silver - this will probably show up as an early problem. If one has an infrared scope this will be obvious by viewing the film in the dark (under IR light source).

Hi Bill, this is probably the most complete info about C-41 bleach. Thanks a lot. I did run into bleach or fix problems a few times. I could not identify which was the problem. I just replaced both chemicals and redid with fresh ones and problems gone. The fixer is cheap so I can just toss it. I do have a desire to keep reusing the bleach before it has really gone bad. There are cheap PH gauges on eBay that should help checking the PH value. Other than that I can only look for occurrence of silver retention to judge if the bleach is no good or not provided the fixer is good.

 

[mtjade2007]

Another simple method for checking retained silver (although it would be fairly advanced) is if the negs look dense and when you view the negative from the emulsion side and you swivel the neg towards the light, you should get what appears to be a positive image. If you can see that then you would need to rebleach the neg.

Yes, the negative would look very dense and the contrast would be unreasonably high. Thanks a lot.

 

[foc]

I do have a desire to keep reusing the bleach before it has really gone bad. There are cheap PH gauges on eBay that should help checking the PH value. Other than that I can only look for occurrence of silver retention to judge if the bleach is no good or not provided the fixer is good.

I remember regenerating C41 bleach back in the late mid 1980s. It was a 50L mix. I know Kodak has a product,
see here, https://125px.com/docs/unsorted/kodak/cis231.pdf
We used glacial acetic acid instead of the Kodak product. I can't remember the full details but there was a chart of how much glacial acetic acid to the waste bleach specific gravity in a given volume.
That glacial acetic acid was very nasty stuff and required special handling.