Long, very long, lasting C-41 chemicals

David Lyga · Oct 19, 2020

Jeannine said:
Hi everyone! I’m new to this group. I’d just like to thank everyone for their informative posts that have aided me in getting this far.

I have graduated from the c41 kits and into the larger, bulk chemicals of the Kodak chemicals mentioned in this thread. I have yet to mix the Developer and am interested in setting part c aside for longevity purposes.

I’m mixing the Kodak Flexicolor Developer /Starter Loor, with the Kodak Flexicolor Developer Replenisher. It appears I need to mix part A & B and then add the Kodak starter? I set part C aside, mixing it to solution above as needed.

My question is how much part c do I add per liter? If I am mixing the chemistry to use in the next few weeks, part c will still be good. However, I bought in bulk so I will have plenty of chemistry left over after I process my film. I’ll be going out of town and not able to use this chemistry for several months. When I return I will properly dispose of the old part c. Then I will add CD4 instead.

Can someone please confirm how much part C to I add to part a & b when Mixing at a liter per time? And when that part c is spent, how much CD4 do I add to part a&b per liter? I believe someone mentioned 5 grams here and adding something else? However there was much back in forth in that regard and I’m unclear if it’s necessary to add anything else to CD4. Also, do I add the Flexicolor starter all at once to part a& b or mix as needed?

Hope that makes sense.

So happy to be part of this group! Thank you in advance for your help.

Jeannine

My C41 Flexicolor 25 US GAL size (KF 12-1532753) contains the following mL of concentrate:

PART A = 3784 X 2 = 7568 mL
PART B = 445 2 = 890 mL
PART C = 473 X 2 = 946 mL.

I have never used 'starter'.

Do the math. - David Lyga

Jeannine · Oct 19, 2020

David Lyga said:
My C41 Flexicolor 25 US GAL size (KF 12-1532753) contains the following mL of concentrate:

PART A = 3784 X 2 = 7568 mL
PART B = 445 2 = 890 mL
PART C = 473 X 2 = 946 mL.

I have never used 'starter'.

Do the math. - David Lyga

Well hello back to you. I must say I was hoping for a friendlier and more informative reply. Not a great first impression.
I am not going to mix everything at once. Keeping that much chemistry laying around in bottles, even if filled to the top is ridiculous. The first comment of this thread spoke of leaving part c out and alternatives for the longevity of c41 chemistry. Why after I specifically ask about that would you talk about filling the bottles? That is obvious though I’m specifically asking something else.

Furthermore, according to Kodak’s literature you are supposed to use starter when first mixing developer lorr. So can’t say your whole do the math

Jeannine · Oct 19, 2020

Apologies, sent early. But yeah, “ do the math” is not an answer. If there is someone that belongs to this forum that actually has the information and wants to share knowledge, I’d greatly appreciate it.

Jeannine · Oct 19, 2020

mtjade2007 said:
I have been able to keep my C-41 working solutions to last for more than a year, almost 2 years. I thought I should share this method with everyone here. I hope this will encourage more people to develop their own color films which will lead to more consumption of C-41 films and as a result it helps film manufacturers (Kodak and Fuji) to make more due to the long lasting consumption in the market.

The benefit of being able to keep the C-41 chemicals for a very long time is mainly so that one can buy the chemicals in larger packages to achieve a much lower cost per unit of the chemicals without fearing that the chemicals will deteriorate and become unusable before they are used.

I am sure a lot of experts in this forum know the fact that the only chemical in a C-41 process that will go bad fairly quickly due to oxidation is the part C of the color developer. Everything else (Part A, B of developer, Bleach,Fix and Final Rinse) mixed or in concentrate will last just about forever. They do last for years to me and they don't seem to go bad any time soon. A unopened developer Part C will last 1 - 2 years but once opened it will oxidize in 2 -3 months even unused and tightly capped in the bottle. A mixed working developer solution will last only 2 -3 weeks.

This method is really a very simple one with a small extra cost. Just buy some CD-4 (Kodak color developer agent #4) in powder form available from Photographers Formulary. I do not know where else sells it so if anyone knows any other places please share them with us here.

I have quite a few expired C-41RA developer replenisher packages, each contains 4 sets of Part A, B and C to make 10 liters of C-41RA developer replenisher with each set, 40 liters total. All my Part C bottles have gone bad and are unusable. I simply mix the Part A and B per the mixing instruction but leave the Part C out (discarded). This is an incomplete C-41RA developer replenisher and It will last for years even mixed.

Before I use it I then mix this incomplete developer replenisher with C-41RA starter per the mixing instruction to make my incomplete C-41RA developer replenisher solution (still no Part C in it). I then add 5 grams of the CD-4 powder per liter of this incomplete developer solution to produce my C-41RA developer working solution. I only make one liter at a time so it will be completely used in a week or so. There is never any waste of it since it is completely used in a week.

As a result I am not only able to develop C-41 films that yields beautiful negatives I have been able to reuse it (with some replenisher added to top up the lost portion due to rotary processing by my Jobo processor). I have been able to reuse it 3 - 4 times with no or very small lost of quality. The CD-4 powder when buying in bulk will cost about $1.50 per 5 grams. I am sure it can be cheaper still when buying larger bulk each time. The greatest benefit is I no longer worry about my developer going bad any more. I can buy any large bulk developer packages and never worry that I will not be able to use all of it before it goes bad. I will use the Part C until it eventually goes bad then switch to use CD-4 powder. Cost of the developer are way down, despite that I have to buy large packages each time but they will last for years before I have to buy again. The bleach is not very cheap but it will last forever unused even opened. I buy it in large containers (5 liter bottle) and never waste any of it. All other chemicals are fairly cheap and also long lasting.

Well, there is one problem that I was once told. I also need to add something else in addition to the CD-4 powder. I have not seen any problems without it but I agree that there is another ingredient in the Part C that was discarded. Maybe because I am using C-41RA replenisher to begin with so it already has that missing ingredient in it. Perhaps I don't really need to add it. If so then I will just stick with developer replenisher always. Large developer packages are always sold in replenisher form any way. Just remember to buy some starter, which is cheap, too.

Hope this is useful info for everyone. Any comments/suggestions are welcome. Thanks.

Jeannine · Oct 19, 2020

Ah, I’m have some serious issues with replying here. It automatically sends without me hitting reply! Anyway, I found a good source by Kodak here in regards to mixing less chemistry.
https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/cis49-2009_12.pdf

As far as the starter that is needed, I believe I add 30 ml x 1.31 starter to 207 ml x 1.31 of water for every liter of developer mixed. I apologize but math is not my strongest suit. I hope I hear back from someone who can confirm this info so I can move forward with mixing. Apologies for the multiple posts. Not sure why there’s not a delete feature?!

Sirius Glass · Oct 19, 2020

Jeannine said:
Well hello back to you. I must say I was hoping for a friendlier and more informative reply. Not a great first impression.
I am not going to mix everything at once. Keeping that much chemistry laying around in bottles, even if filled to the top is ridiculous. The first comment of this thread spoke of leaving part c out and alternatives for the longevity of c41 chemistry. Why after I specifically ask about that would you talk about filling the bottles? That is obvious though I’m specifically asking something else.

Furthermore, according to Kodak’s literature you are supposed to use starter when first mixing developer lorr. So can’t say your whole do the math

Especially as someone who just starting posting, you deserved a full, complete, and lucid response.

MattKing · Oct 19, 2020

I think David's response was brief - in fact incredibly brief for David - but not unfriendly.
Just not as welcoming as I would prefer.
So I'll welcome you to Photrio.
His off the bottle measurements though are useful, because a lot of people have more success keeping working strength developer than they do keeping partial bottles of concentrate - particularly the Part C.
As far as the starter is concerned, it is designed to be used in a replenishment regime. It lowers the activity of the developer to the same level as the steady state of a regularly re-used and replenished developer. If you aren't using the developer in a replenishment regime, I wouldn't recommend using starter.

Вormental_old · Oct 19, 2020

Jeannine said:
Well hello back to you. I must say I was hoping for a friendlier and more informative reply. Not a great first impression.

I read it differently. He gave you the numbers for 25L and suggested you divide these numbers by 25 to get the amounts for 1L. Did you expect him to use a calculator of you?

It's not David who's making a not-so-great first impression here.

David Lyga · Oct 19, 2020

David Lyga said:
My C41 Flexicolor 25 US GAL size (KF 12-1532753) contains the following mL of concentrate:

PART A = 3784 X 2 = 7568 mL
PART B = 445 2 = 890 mL
PART C = 473 X 2 = 946 mL.

I have never used 'starter'.

Do the math. - David Lyga

Sorry that I am not within your pay scale, dear. - David Lyga

pentaxuser · Oct 19, 2020

I think we need to recognise that until people become very familiar with the ins and outs of colour developing and different quantities etc they may be wary of "hidden things" in what may be straightforward matters so they look for more guidance than will be the case as their knowledge grows

Jeannine had only 4 posts before she posted in this thread. It has taken me 15 years and 10 million posts to become as confident and some cruel people would say, as tiresome as I have become now

Welcome, Jeannine. Riding the trail to Abilene can be hard and there will be some apparent snarls along the way but don't worry. In this outfit called Photrio even the "roughnecks" want make sure you get to the "end of the line" successfully.

We're really more Jimmy Stewart than Jack Palance

pentaxuser

David Lyga · Oct 19, 2020

Вormental said:
I read it differently. He gave you the numbers for 25L and suggested you divide these numbers by 25 to get the amounts for 1L. Did you expect him to use a calculator of you?

It's not David who's making a not-so-great first impression here.

Bormental: Thank you for having the tenacity (and intellect) to see things rationally. I regularly scan these posts and when I see a query about some factual information that I might be able to disseminate, I quickly try to readily comply, Maybe this time I had failed to be sufficiently politically correct. Again, you got it right, not my detractors who wanted to see something nefarious.

But the real reason for my reply to you Bormental was to state that I gave information for 25 US Gallons, not liters, (which you stated). (Please re-read my post.) Again, the inquirer wanted factual, quantitative information and that is precisely what I did and with no nefarious intentions. The fact that I did not sugar coat it 'for the lady' is going to have to be something that you will have to deal with, It was not meant as rude, but, I will say that in all the years of posting, I have never been received by such forwardness as this dame.

That said, think what you wish, and if the mods wish to cater to this party because she is new and fem, so be it. I feel no guilt for this or for the fact that I have dared never to use a starter in the process. If this woman finds that foul please tell her that there is far more foul in her world in her neck of the woods. If that upsets this 'Jean', so be it, as there are worse things to get upset over.

Now, mods, do your catering ... as you are obligated to castigate me. - David Lyga

Jeannine · Oct 19, 2020

Thank you to the few people who took the time to extend warm greetings. I special thank you to Pentax, for providing useful & insightful information. I appreciate you taking the time to share knowledge rather than looking for an opportunity to shame my question. Yes, the measurements of A,B & C are indeed helpful. They are also clearly labeled and easily measured. So forgive me if I took the answer coupled with, "do the math," as less than helpful. Not extending a basic salutation, ignoring my query and answering with basic measurements that anyone could obtain, is insulting. You made your archaic position towards women quite clear in your later posts. My mistake if I thought of this as a friendly community to share knowledge. Warm salutations are not a requirement but it certainly creates an environment conducive to sharing information. Now I realize this is yet another boys club of ego, hand holding where grown men think it is acceptable to regard a woman they have never meant as, "dear and sweetie." As a younger person I have not had the luxury of spending my entire life shooting film. It is intimidating enough to reach out to a group of professionals. I am shocked that David and his cronies think this is acceptable behavior. Amateurs be very careful of your wording or your question will be disregarded. Maybe I should change my screen name to Joe to avoid these sexist, waste of time replies in the future? Is it too much to ask that my gender not be judged when submitting replies? Or is it too hard to extend that basic respect?

I am no stranger to this sexist, shallow type of behaviour. It does disappoint me that in this day in age, on a forum I respected, I would be debased as an emotional woman and not treated as a fellow being interested in the craft of photography.

I can't help but wonder what the tone of your reply would have been if I was a male? If my inquiry was so beneath you, why even bother to respond? If you spent a fraction of the energy you did in your last message, we wouldn't be here.

David, it is 2020, it is extremely rude to call a grown woman dear, dame etc. I realize you know this and intended to be insulting. Honestly, you are only embarrassing yourself. If this is the type of sexist replies that I can expect, I will go to the many other forums available in the future. I'd much rather be in the darkroom than defending my gender.

I take extreme offense at being called dear and quite basically this entire message.

"Thank you for having the tenacity (and intellect) to see things rationally. I regularly scan these posts and when I see a query about some factual information that I might be able to disseminate, I quickly try to readily comply, Maybe this time I had failed to be sufficiently politically correct. Again, you got it right, not my detractors who wanted to see something nefarious.

But the real reason for my reply to you Bormental was to state that I gave information for 25 US Gallons, not liters, (which you stated). (Please re-read my post.) Again, the inquirer wanted factual, quantitative information and that is precisely what I did and with no nefarious intentions. The fact that I did not sugar coat it 'for the lady' is going to have to be something that you will have to deal with, It was not meant as rude, but, I will say that in all the years of posting, I have never been received by such forwardness as this dame.

That said, think what you wish, and if the mods wish to cater to this party because she is new and fem, so be it. I feel no guilt for this or for the fact that I have dared never to use a starter in the process. If this woman finds that foul please tell her that there is far more foul in her world in her neck of the woods. If that upsets this 'Jean', so be it, as there are worse things to get upset over.

Now, mods, do your catering ... as you are obligated to castigate me. - David Lyga" Quoted from David Lyga
In the future, David, kindly ignore a question you deem beneath your precious intellect. There are clearly many here who are just as capable of helping but also know what tact and respect are.
Kind Regards,

The Dear, new & fem, lady,

"Jean"

Вormental_old · Oct 19, 2020

@Jeannine This is not Twitter. You aren't winning any friends by dropping sexist/racist/whatever bombs at the slightest disagreement.

pentaxuser · Oct 19, 2020

Assuming Jeannine that you decide to stick with us until the end of the trail in Abilene then a confession from me. Until the last few days I had not read this thread at all. I had simply missed it first time around and had missed what may have been an exciting revelation. It would appear that the original poster had discovered what he believed to have been a method of extending the life of C41 chemicals for a very long time.

This appears to be as follows: Part C of the developer is the only part of the Kodak set of C41 chemicals that goes bad quickly so by using Part C quickly after opening you avoid it going bad, Thereafter once you have used it, you simply mix parts A and B which last a long time and having bought CD4 from Photographer's Formulary you mix 5 grammes per litre into the already mixed parts A and B when you intend to do C41 processing, ensuring of course that having added CD4 you use it up on the kind of timescale mentioned as the clock is then ticking. That way you can risk buying large quantities of the rest of the C41 chemicals for the economy and just buy CD4 as needed

The late PE,. who for Jeannine's benefit was a long serving former Kodak photo engineer who specialised in C41 matter appears to have said to the OP " If it works for you then go ahead"

So does that mean that from a photo engineer's point of view it ought to work in theory at least ?

We cannot ask PE any longer as sadly he died earlier this year but the OP, mtjade2007, is still with us so ideally we need him to comment as to his success or otherwise on his idea

pentaxuser

Jeannine · Oct 19, 2020

Hey Pentax,

Yes, I have the large quantity and plan to set aside the mixed A & B and mix per liter. I will use part c to the correct ratio for the next few weeks while it is still potent. In six months when I return I will then invest in the CD4 at 5ml per liter. I also understand that since I am not going thru a replenishing routine I do not need to use the starter at this time. So I guess I just toss that out? Not sure if that will ever come of use later. All I was trying to sort out if how much part c to use per liter. I have not opened it yet and can get several rolls before I store the chemistry for the winter. I hope that makes sense. That is unclear as my initial question was ignored. Mixing everything at once is not an option right now. Plus it just seems silly if it is possible to sub CD4 for Part C later. Hopefully we hear from mtjade on this.

Вormental said:
@Jeannine This is not Twitter. You aren't winning any friends by dropping sexist/racist/whatever bombs at the slightest disagreement.

In regards to Boremental's quote, REALLY? The language and tone was certainly not ignited by me. Can you read his email and say that his use of language was not condescending? Perhaps this is a modern concept for some. Words like dear, should never be used in a situation like this. Terms of endearment like these, become condescending or patronizing, and in some cases may be seen as harassment. This is the pretty standard stuff. I refuse to apologize for defending myself and for being frustrated I had to.

Truly sorry to hear of PE's passing. I have learned a great deal over the years from his insightful posts. <3

Believe me, this whole mess was not what I was anticipating when I made the mistake of reaching out last night. Thanks again.

grat · Oct 19, 2020

Jeannine said:
I am no stranger to this sexist, shallow type of behaviour. It does disappoint me that in this day in age, on a forum I respected, I would be debased as an emotional woman and not treated as a fellow being interested in the craft of photography.

I can't help but wonder what the tone of your reply would have been if I was a male? If my inquiry was so beneath you, why even bother to respond? If you spent a fraction of the energy you did in your last message, we wouldn't be here.

I hate to disappoint you, but I'd read three posts from you before I noticed the feminine username-- and noted it mainly because you seem to be a little sensitive. I could name a few male posters I've made the same note about, but it's not really relevant. To me, it doesn't really matter, because in terms of development chemistry, it is completely unimportant. Of the people I converse with on here, and have made far ruder comments about than anything expressed in this thread, I only assume they're male (or female), because of their avatar, or whatever name they're referenced by-- and even then, it's only an issue so I get the pronouns right.

If you want to take the time to learn C41 developing, and the black art of getting maximum life out of easily oxidized chemicals, it's going to take some work on your part, and some of that requires math. David's first response, which while a bit sketchy, and containing one of my least favorite phrases, did contain useful information. He certainly didn't insult you by assuming that since you're female, you're obviously incapable of doing math (which would have been sexist!).

Personally, I find using spreadsheets to be a good way, especially for B&W developing, to to keep track of stock + working solution measurements. Should I eventually travel down the C41 rabbit hole, I'll consider something similar.

As for CD4, if it's still available on the PF site, I couldn't find it, so I don't think this is a viable technique anyway. The best write-up I've seen on FlexiColor was a blog post some few months ago called "Kodak FlexiColor at Home" or some such.

Вormental_old · Oct 19, 2020

Jeannine said:
In regards to Boremental's quote, REALLY? The language and tone was certainly not ignited by me. Can you read his email and say that his use of language was not condescending? Perhaps this is a modern concept for some. Words like dear, should never be used in a situation like this. Terms of endearment like these, become condescending or patronizing, and in some cases may be seen as harassment. This is the pretty standard stuff. I refuse to apologize for defending myself and for being frustrated I had to.

Have you considered that maybe you're overly sensitive or insecure? Logically, its just as likely as David being a sexist monster. IMO words like "dear" should always be used everywhere, because they have a good meaning. When I visit Texas, random ladies (usually older) call me "dear" or "sweetie" all the time, it's awesome. No, it cannot be seen as harassment in any case (I have overseen harassment training in our org).

You also do not need to apologize, as we don't blame you for anything.

Jeannine · Oct 19, 2020

It’s all a matter of perspective. Not sure why you’re so defensive against my point of view. The context and various other things that were said in the post that followed were indeed sexist. I get it your all friends and I somehow stepped into this argument. Being pegged as over sensitive when calling these things out is also pretty standard. I think it was rude, you think I’m over sensitive. I’m happy to move on from this.

CD 4 can be found at Artcraft in upstate ny.

Vaughn · Oct 19, 2020

Good luck with your C-41 work, Jeannie. Sorry you've run into one of our crusties and the fragile fallout that flitters forthwith.

We are a crusty bunch here...the old bell curve's got a beer belly, heavy on the old white male end of things (waving my hand!) But oh my, the info is pretty good and if you can tune out the wolf whistles at some of the nudes, the images are pretty good, too.

Jeannine · Oct 20, 2020

Hello Vaughn!

Thank you kindly. I’ve been involved with photography for about 15 years now. I’m no stranger to the crusty, older gentleman with cameras crowd. In fact many of them are my dearest friends. I should have reached out to them perhaps but I was looking to network and meet likeminded enthusiasts. I never ask for help and it’s not like me to use a forum. Most men have no idea what it feels like to be talked down to because you’re a female. I will be sure to keep my more risky imagery to myself. I mainly shoot double exposures and am interested in experimental photography. I’m currently shooting several formats, practicing 4x5 wet plate photography and processing all of my own b&w and color. I’m awful at numbers and may have some deficit there. We all have our strengths. I greatly appreciate the few who reached out to share knowledge and extend warmth. I’m sure some are scoffing at the cowering down to a female. Honestly I’m not surprised I pushed some buttons. Y’all have a fantastic week. Til the next time.

pentaxuser · Oct 20, 2020

What concerns me is whether the OP's solution of CD4 to the problem of Kodak Part C deteriorating quite quickly did work and has done so since 2014 when that person first mentioned it. Usually someone who believes he has worked out what seems to be a viable solution tends to report back his success. Failures are reported less often and we have to infer it from the silence

However as the OP was here a few days ago I had hoped he might have reported back. If there are difficulties then for the sake of Jeannine and anyone else who is interested in what was proposed it would be useful to know

pentaxuser

grat · Oct 20, 2020

Jeannine said:
CD 4 can be found at Artcraft in upstate ny.

Good to know. I checked PF and did a general search, neither of which was fruitful. Let us know how this works for you, as the OP hasn't really said.

I shoot just enough color to want to use C41, and not enough to keep the chemicals viable for long enough, so I'm definitely interested in the results.

mtjade2007 · Oct 22, 2020

Gentlemen, my apologies for not visiting this site frequently. I received a message from Pentaxuser and realized that this thread is still alive. So I wonder if any of you ever tried it and if it is successful. Anyway, here is my update to the thread. I have not done film photography for some time especially because of COVID-19 situation. The last time I developed films by applying the same trick it was about 2 years ago. I shot several 220 rolls. Again I had complete success no doubt. I prepared my C-41 developer by mixing the part A and B out of my C-41RA developer kit followed by mixing the C-41RA starter but without the part C. My part C bottles were completely black and useless. I bought my C-41RA chemicals more than 10 years ago. I added 5 grams of CD-4 powder per liter of the eveloper (w/o part C) right at the time before developing my negatives. I developed my films in a JOBO ATL-2300 so the process is very consistent. I then scanned my films with a Minolta MF film scanner. I did not need to do much post color adjustment meaning the films did not have color crossover error. So the development was a complete success.

I still have several boxes of the C-41RA and bleach as well as the final rinse chemicals. I do need to get C-41 fixer which is not expensive. I also have half a freezer full of expired films I really can not wait to resume shooting with films. I use a Pentax 67-ii and several Contax RTS-ii and lenses. Again I hope to be able to resume film photography soon next year and hopefully the pandemic will not be a barrier any more.

Glad to hear that CD-4 powder in larger quantity is available now. But I wonder if the quality is good. I got an impression that CD-4 from different sources do vary in quality. I hope this is a false impression.

mtjade2007 · Oct 22, 2020

I bought the large lot of my film chemicals at the time mini labs were closing down and their left over chemicals were dumped cheaply on eBay. I found one seller in Los Angeles and drove 400 miles to see him. I returned with more than I wanted chemicals by paying only a few hundred dollars, The seller was a mini lab owner. Before I went to buy the chemicals I already had the idea that the Part C would go bad quickly once the bottle is opened. I also knew that it won't last probably more than a year unopened. Prior to the decision of buying the bulk chemicals I learned about the powder CD-4 trick from a magazine called Creative Darkroom Techniques. I did not know if it were going to work though. It turned out it did work and I am a strong believer of it ever since I did it.

PE saw my post and I think he had some doubt about it but I think he also said if it works then just do it. Although I won't say I have done it with a lot of films but I think I have done enough to say it does work.

pentaxuser · Oct 22, 2020

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to reply mtjade2007. It is much appreciated. It looks as if our newcomer Jeannine had trust in the CD4 from her source as the solution to the problem of PartC anyway and was prepared to give it a go but now we know of your success this helps matters greatly.

Just a question and for everyone with the right chemical knowledge: Is CD4 used for purposes other than C41 and if so will it be of a different kind? If that is the case then what do prospective buyers of CD4 need to ask about and check on before buying?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Long, very long, lasting C-41 chemicals

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