Long, very long, lasting C-41 chemicals

Photo Engineer · Mar 16, 2014

Well, IDK how much Sulfite is in the other parts of the Kodak kit, so I would go by the MSDS as much as possible when kluding a mix. It will work, but to varying degrees of "perfection". Since your results are good so far, I would not worry too much. If the developer begins to darken or oil out, then you did need more Sulfite.

As for a 3 bath kit, remember... you need Developer, Bleach, Fix and Final Rinse / Stabilzer. That is also to do a good job. And sometimes, you need a Stop Bath after the developer. This again is to do it to "perfection".

In my long experience with C41, a blix just does not fully do the job unless the manufacturer is using some variation on the patent that we had on blixes.

PE

RPC · Mar 16, 2014

Mtjade, you can try adding the bisulfite but an educated guess is that it is there more for long term storage of part C than anything. Leaving it out may cause a slight pH difference of the mixed developer that could be adjusted with acid. You mentioned not wanting to deal with pH adjustments but if you want to really do things right, then you should check and adjust the pH if you are going to do any experimenting such as adding the bisulfite.

Photo Engineer · Mar 16, 2014

It is there for color adjustment, contrast adjustment and sharpness / grain control as well as keeping.

See above post by Rudeofus.

PE

RPC · Mar 16, 2014

Bisulfite or sulfite? I know sulfite competes with coupler for oxidized developer, but does bisulfite? Do we know for sure that part C contains sulfite? I know it is in part A. I thought bisulfite, being acidic, was in part C to preserve. If it is there to prevent oil in storage as Rudeofus says, this would not affect Mtjade, since he mixes as needed and uses it up.

StoneNYC · Mar 16, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
Well, IDK how much Sulfite is in the other parts of the Kodak kit, so I would go by the MSDS as much as possible when kluding a mix. It will work, but to varying degrees of "perfection". Since your results are good so far, I would not worry too much. If the developer begins to darken or oil out, then you did need more Sulfite.

As for a 3 bath kit, remember... you need Developer, Bleach, Fix and Final Rinse / Stabilzer. That is also to do a good job. And sometimes, you need a Stop Bath after the developer. This again is to do it to "perfection".

In my long experience with C41, a blix just does not fully do the job unless the manufacturer is using some variation on the patent that we had on blixes.

PE

Yes I remember you said I should extend the blix time so as to try and make sure more of the silver is taken care of. I'm going to go through this batch and then next time I'll separate out the bleach and fix.

I still can't remember the formula for the E-6 version of the stabilizer... mine never came with one... I know that's not what this thread is about but I know its different than C-41

Thanks PE.

CatLABS · Mar 16, 2014

StoneNYC said:
Yes I remember you said I should extend the blix time so as to try and make sure more of the silver is taken care of. I'm going to go through this batch and then next time I'll separate out the bleach and fix.

I still can't remember the formula for the E-6 version of the stabilizer... mine never came with one... I know that's not what this thread is about but I know its different than C-41

Thanks PE.

Stabilizer is stabilizer.
You can use CPAC stuff (high concentrate formaldahyde free) or Sprint (lower concentrate, and still formaldahyde free).

StoneNYC · Mar 16, 2014

CatLABS said:
Stabilizer is stabilizer.
You can use CPAC stuff (high concentrate formaldahyde free) or Sprint (lower concentrate, and still formaldahyde free).

PE specifically said that C-41 stabilizer wouldn't be good enough for E-6 film... thats my memory of what he said.

Photo Engineer · Mar 16, 2014

You must use FORMALIN in an E6 Stabilizer. Kodak and Fuji use the older style couplers in E6 films which require it for proper image stability. And so Stabilizer is NOT Stabilizer.

Use 5 - 10 ml of 37% Formalin in regular working strength Photo Flo 200 for E6.

As for Sulfite and Bisulfite, see the other ongoing thread about this, but basically whatever you use, when it is dissolved in the developer it is Sulfite and if it is dissolved in Acid it becomes Sulfur Dioxide gas which stinks just like the concentrate!

PE

CatLABS · Mar 16, 2014

StoneNYC said:
PE specifically said that C-41 stabilizer wouldn't be good enough for E-6 film... thats my memory of what he said.

No disrespect to PE, but you might have gotten it backwards in saying that E-6 stabilizer is good enough for C-41 (but its true in both ways in any case).

Side note #A: This thread is ignoring for some reason the existence of C41 developers which come in a SINGLE part mix, and have a shelve life of 24 months or more.

Side note #B: The BLIX issue comes up all the time (that is PE said something once, and others have repeated even when not relevant), but 2 Bath C41 have been around for a while, and i have yet to have seen an end user demonstrating any ill effects or benefits of 2 bath vs 3 bath. As there is a fairly limited choice of options for C41, there is no reason to theorize so much about what could have or would have been if things were like this or like that.

All C41 kits come with fairly explicit instructions, and if followed produce perfect results time and time again (regardless of PE's or others warnings and inhibitions).
(Kodak Flexcolor material is not a kit, and not designed to be used by consumer users, thus has multiple mixes, and various sets of instructions depending on application)

All this said again with total respect to PE's knowledge and experience.

Photo Engineer · Mar 16, 2014

CatLABS;

Please read the long thread on Stabilizers and Final Rinses I posted here a while back.

Kodak changed the formulations of all C41 films about 10 years ago so that they no longer need Formalin. They did NOT do this for E6 and thus a Formalin stabilizer will work for E6 and C41 but a C41 final rinse will not work for E6. You need Formalin for E6 but not for C41. The current C41 Final Rinse is a bacteriostat to prevent growth of bugs on film and a wetting agent. That's it!

Silver is a bacteriostat. It kills bacteria, fungi and mold just like formalin! If silver is removed (something color film requires) then bugs can grow!

As for a blix, C41 films contain DIR couplers which bind to the surface of silver metal and silver halide. This is difficult to remove. Add to that the fact that dye droplets surround the silver and silver halide and you find that silver metal and silver halide are hard to remove from C41 films. We did devise a blix (Mowrey, Stevens and Wolfarth -USP ??? I forget at this time! ) Anyhow, I've done many tests on the effects on the image if the color film is not properly bleached and fixed.

Unless special precautions are taken, silver is retained leading to degraded (more neutral) colors, and higher contrast along with increased grain. I have yet to see data showing me otherwise. The data in my favor is that neither Kodak nor Fuji are willing to use a BLIX.

Now, the solution is a BLIX with lots of fixing agent to drive the reaction, but the cost in $$ is high and the film becomes softer due to the action of the strong chemistry in some cases (read cheaper color films) and thus an effective BLIX is not really feasible.

Take it from someone who devoted over 5 years of R&D to this problem. BLIXes are hard to formulate and do not always go to completion.

E6 is vaguely similar but not exactly the same due to the difference in formulation of the film. They do not use DIRs for color correction.

PE

mtjade2007 · Mar 16, 2014

One of the reasons that I avoid any C-41 kits that contain Blix and will always buy Bleach and Fix is that the fixer will be exhausted much faster than the Bleach. The Bleach can be re-oxygenated many many times (although not forever) and is still very potent. The Fixer on the other hand once exhausted has to be discarded. The Bleach is far more expensive than the fixer. I don't want to have to toss the Blix only because the fixer is exhausted.

The 2nd reason is that Kodak C-41 chemicals are not sold in kits these days. This allows me to buy developer, bleach, fix and final rinse individually depending on my consumption. I found this flexibility saves money and is best for me.

The 3rd reason is Kodak's chemicals are actually much cheaper than any other brands. I am not sure if this applies to everyone in every region worldwide but in USA I have not found any other brands that are cheaper. I have access to Tetenal chemicals from a large outlet in California. But the price is almost twice of the Kodak's.

The 4th reason is that I have faith in PE. Separate Bleach and Fix steps are not a problem at all.

Photo Engineer · Mar 16, 2014

Thanks. Your argument about lifetime and capacity vs cost are very potent and ones that I should have listed.

PE

Truzi · Mar 16, 2014

SIDEBAR:
So, I have a Tetanol kit with blix, and some TF-5... I think you can anticipate the question.
Can I fix first, then use the blix mostly for the bleaching aspect, and have better results than blix alone?

Yes, I will purchase some bleach, and/or try to mix some from a formula Photo Engineer posted elsewhere on APUG (with appropriate modifications to the process, as in his post).

I will sacrifice the blix if that is best, though it does seem a waste if I cannot use it for something.

I have to defer to PE's experience. I've read about pros and cons, bleach-bypass, etc., and would prefer to do a separate bleach and fix. Even if I screw up processing, I want the messed up negatives to last, just in case I produce some little Truzi's that can inherit them.

Photo Engineer · Mar 16, 2014

No, fixing first will not help.

However, TF-5 can work as a fix with a C41 bleach. Or, after a blix for added safety.

You guys forget how many posts there have been about blixes going bad on dealers shelves or in their own darkrooms. This is another problem. They don't keep well, especially the one part kind.

PE

Truzi · Mar 16, 2014

I purchased the TF-5 on your advice elsewhere, since I can use it with C-41 among other things. (It will also be the first rapid fix I'll use - I still have several bags of the Kodak powdered fix).

With the the potential problems of blix, perhaps I'll wait until I get some proper bleach - I don't want to risk under-bleaching (unless it's on purpose).

Christiaan Phleger · Mar 17, 2014

Thank you PE for sharing your wealth of knowledge. The era when you were doing your work would have been a great time to be a photographic chemist.

Athiril · Mar 17, 2014

StoneNYC said:
PE specifically said that C-41 stabilizer wouldn't be good enough for E-6 film... thats my memory of what he said.

Kodak Flexicolor Stabiliser III is formalin based.

Athiril · Mar 17, 2014

RPC said:
The ingredients on my Flexicolor part C lists bisulfite, but no sulfite. When I substitute CD-4 for part C I don't add any bisulfite, print RA-4, and get good gray scales, contrast and skin tones that compare well with Flexicolor. Therefore the lack of bisulfite apparently has no great affect. At least none that is noticable to me.

It's a preservative for the concentrate, as it's both acidic and an anti-oxidant. C-41 is well buffered, the bisulphite would slightly lower dye formation I think during development.

RPC said:
Bisulfite or sulfite? I know sulfite competes with coupler for oxidized developer, but does bisulfite? Do we know for sure that part C contains sulfite? I know it is in part A. I thought bisulfite, being acidic, was in part C to preserve. If it is there to prevent oil in storage as Rudeofus says, this would not affect Mtjade, since he mixes as needed and uses it up.

Yes it does, bisulphite forms sulphite in alkaline solution (such as with the sodium carbonate).

Rudeofus · Mar 17, 2014

Truzi said:
So, I have a Tetanol kit with blix, and some TF-5... I think you can anticipate the question.
Can I fix first, then use the blix mostly for the bleaching aspect, and have better results than blix alone?

Contrary to what PE says, I would say yes, for C-41 process a fix before BLIX will help, because there is undeveloped Silver to be removed (unlike in E6) and the load on the BLIX will be lower.

If that extra TF-5 bath is too expensive and/or too much of a hassle, you could think about using a cheap acidic fixer to be used as stop/fix bath like I suggested (there was a url link here which no longer exists). With BLIX kits you absolutely need a stop bath anyway.

CatLABS · Mar 17, 2014

Athiril said:
Kodak Flexicolor Stabiliser III is formalin based.

I am not sure about Australia, but AFAIK the USA is the only place in the world were formaldehyde is not considered a potential carcinogen in animals and humans...

Truzi · Mar 17, 2014

Thanx, Rudeofus, but the TF-5 isn't a problem for me, and I'm actually a bit excited to use a rapid fix for the first time (will probably use it on B&W first). I also have a bottle of Kodak Indicator Stop that just won't die, plus I purchased a litre of Glacial Acetic Acid for some reason.

I do have an old Rollei Digibase kit that I never opened, with the separate bleach and fix. I imagine those parts should be fine, but have read about the developer in those kits going off - and I've had it too long (I procrastinate quite a bit). So I purchased the Tetenal as a back-up.

The more that I think about it, my original question was probably a bit stupid. Supplementing with an additional fix bath would probably not make the blix work any better. It might make sure the film is properly fixed, but bleaching is my concern.
I get the impression that the bleach and fix properties of blix degrade each other independent of reaching capacity.

I find this thread interesting because I do not develop often, and am going to start C-41 soon. I like the OP's idea of adding CD4. Unfortunately, I do not have the skill to know how much Sulfite to add. On the other hand, I'm just doing snapshots, so if I can get it to work for my untrained eyes, that should be enough for my purposes.

StoneNYC · Mar 17, 2014

Truzi said:
Thanx, Rudeofus, but the TF-5 isn't a problem for me, and I'm actually a bit excited to use a rapid fix for the first time (will probably use it on B&W first). I also have a bottle of Kodak Indicator Stop that just won't die, plus I purchased a litre of Glacial Acetic Acid for some reason.

I do have an old Rollei Digibase kit that I never opened, with the separate bleach and fix. I imagine those parts should be fine, but have read about the developer in those kits going off - and I've had it too long (I procrastinate quite a bit). So I purchased the Tetenal as a back-up.

The more that I think about it, my original question was probably a bit stupid. Supplementing with an additional fix bath would probably not make the blix work any better. It might make sure the film is properly fixed, but bleaching is my concern.
I get the impression that the bleach and fix properties of blix degrade each other independent of reaching capacity.

I find this thread interesting because I do not develop often, and am going to start C-41 soon. I like the OP's idea of adding CD4. Unfortunately, I do not have the skill to know how much Sulfite to add. On the other hand, I'm just doing snapshots, so if I can get it to work for my untrained eyes, that should be enough for my purposes.

I never understood what the need for an "indicator" stop was... The film stops in like 30 seconds, why bother needing an indicator, just agitate a full minute and be done with it? Heck I always do a wash first a the water wash probably half stops it anyway.

What am I missing? An indicator fixer would be more helpful, if it could somehow work repeatedly, which is of course unrealistic...

Or am I missing something?

Truzi · Mar 17, 2014

You're missing something, lol.
The stop bath changes color to indicate when it is exhausted. I've not exhausted it yet, and someone here suggested I put a little in a cup, and add a little developer just to watch it change - so I did.

I was thinking of getting bromocresol purple to make my own indicator stop. No real reason except that it would be fun. Finding the amount to add to the stop is the difficult part. I'm not a chemist, but I'm pretty sure "a pinch" of bromocresol isn't even an approximate measure.

StoneNYC · Mar 17, 2014

Truzi said:
You're missing something, lol.
The stop bath changes color to indicate when it is exhausted. I've not exhausted it yet, and someone here suggested I put a little in a cup, and add a little developer just to watch it change - so I did.

I was thinking of getting bromocresol purple to make my own indicator stop. No real reason except that it would be fun. Finding the amount to add to the stop is the difficult part. I'm not a chemist, but I'm pretty sure "a pinch" of bromocresol isn't even an approximate measure.

Oh! I always just replace it when I replace my fixer, basically everything gets re-loaded when my fixer is dead hah!

Thanks though, it's a "duh!" Moment for sure

MattKing · Mar 17, 2014

StoneNYC said:
Oh! I always just replace it when I replace my fixer, basically everything gets re-loaded when my fixer is dead hah!

Thanks though, it's a "duh!" Moment for sure

The indicator is there for:

1) labs that re-use their stop bath for film; and
2) prints, where it sits in a tray and several prints are run through it.

When printing, the indicator helps remind you to change or replenish the fix and developer too.

Long, very long, lasting C-41 chemicals

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