Lodima, Lupex, Amidol, Ansco 130: A Report

[Jarin Blaschke]

Hello:

I printed Lodima and Lupex today, in Amidol and an Ansco 130 variant. The results were surprising.

The image was an 8x10" negative of a Stouffer wedge, amed by contact printing the wedge onto FP4 film. It has a Pyrogallol stain (WD2D+).

The Amidol formula used was this:

Sodium Sulfite: 30g
Citric Acid: 3g
Benzotriazole, 1%: 40cc
Amidol: 10g

The 130 variant was Wimberley's from the Darkroom Cookbook (benzotriazole instead of Bromide).

I started with Lodima grade 4. I developed for 90 seconds in the amidol and 3 minutes in the 130. Firstly, 22 second exposure in the 130 roughly matches density to 30 seconds in Amidol. By counting steps on the wedge, the 130 has a little more contrast, between 1 and 2 less steps as far as contrast range. However, the big revelation is the almost shocking difference in Dmax. The Amidol has a much stronger black. In fact, the contrast may be nearly the same between developers, and the amidol just steps down two additional steps to reach its much richer black.

I was so surprised by the Dmax difference, I then developed another sheet in the 130 for five minutes. There was an overall very slight density shift darker, but the blacks were unimproved. Then, I discarded and remixed the 130 from scratch, to confirm that I did it right, only this time I shaved off 25% of the restrainer and upped the carbonate from 78 grams to 100 grams. The improvement in blacks were somewhat improved, but almost imperceptibly so. I printed another sheet to tone in selenium to see how much that improves it.

I then moved on to Lupex. Weirdly, the results were exactly the same as Lodima: density, contrast, color, everything. I can't see the difference between them. It's spookily suspicious, as Lupex and Lodima grade 4 were released around the same time. I will check again when the prints are dry...

Next time I will compare these silver chloride papers to enlarging papers in the same developers, as well as graded paper and VC paper and how they both respond to a tanned negative. I will also eventually send my results to my friend in New York who has a densitometer so I can post the graphs.

-Jarin

 

[Alan9940]

A couple of thoughts since I have direct experience with both papers, but not Ansco 130...
MAS recommends a 1 minute development in Amidol. Also, and I got this directly from MAS, Lupex contrast is about the same as Lodima grade 4. Therefore, I'm not surprised the prints look very similar. IMO, each of these papers demands a fairly significant difference in CI in the negative to print properly. I use Pyrocat-HD, which is a different animal vs pyrogallol formulas, but my target Zone VIII density for Lupex is 1.0, while I need in the range of 1.8 - 2.0 for Lodima grade 2. I would expect Lodima grade 4 to need a "Lupex CI negative" to print roughly the same.

If I missed the point of your post, then please ignore.

 

[Jarin Blaschke]

Hi Alan:

I prefer cooler tones, and so develop a little longer than MAS's preference, use a little more amidol and pair with benzotriazole. However, now I know that Amidol and chloride can never truly reach a proper cold tone. That's ok - the Dmax is worth it.
What this test tells me is that you cannot reach a chloride paper's potential without amidol.

I expected Lupex and Lodima G4 to be similar. What I was not expecting to find is that they are exactly the same.

After printing the same in Galerie, Seagul VC, Ilford MGWT and Adox MCC 110, I have Pyrocat HD and Rodinal negs to put through the same process, to see how VC responds to these two kinds of stain.

 

[Peter Schrager]

there's no "right" time for paper to be in the Amidol. I used times as little as 20 seconds in the first bath. or as long as 1:30 in the first bath
depends on the negative folks...this is photography; it's a little like cooking !
Best, Peter

 

[Alan9940]

I prefer cooler tones, and so develop a little longer than MAS's preference, use a little more amidol and pair with benzotriazole. However, now I know that Amidol and chloride can never truly reach a proper cold tone. That's ok - the Dmax is worth it.

Ah, that explains it! I prefer warmer tones so a 1 min develop in Amidol on Lupex really hits the sweet spot for me.

I expected Lupex and Lodima G4 to be similar. What I was not expecting to find is that they are exactly the same.

I would not expect them to be exactly the same, either. Surprising...

After printing the same in Galerie, Seagul VC, Ilford MGWT and Adox MCC 110, I have Pyrocat HD and Rodinal negs to put through the same process, to see how VC responds to these two kinds of stain.

I look forward to your results following these tests.

 

[Photo Engineer]

The formulas for the Lupex and Lodima papers are virtually identical. They compare well with the formula for Azo.

PE

 

[miha]

The formulas for the Lupex and Lodima papers are virtually identical. They compare well with the formula for Azo.

PE

PE, have you been involved in the development of these two emulsions, do you know where these two paperes are being coated?

@Jarin: My experience is limited to a coulple of sheets of ADOX Lupex. Developed in Ilford Multigrade it goes blue black.

 

[Photo Engineer]

I have the Lupex formula. I know the Azo formula. I have a hybrid formula of these in my book that can be easily made in the home lab. The results are virtually identical in speed to Azo and Lupex paper and with virtually identical curve shape.

Azo and Lupex use different addenda to achieve the same result.

PE

 

[Jarin Blaschke]

@Jarin: My experience is limited to a coulple of sheets of ADOX Lupex. Developed in Ilford Multigrade it goes blue black.

In 130W (benzo version), it was very cool, almost blue-black as well.

It’s interesting to think that if you are in Europe, and Lupex is easier to get or if you are stateside and Lodima G4 is more accessible, you are getting the same paper.

J

 

[surfboard]

I have the Lupex formula. I know the Azo formula. I have a hybrid formula of these in my book that can be easily made in the home lab. The results are virtually identical in speed to Azo and Lupex paper and with virtually identical curve shape.

Azo and Lupex use different addenda to achieve the same result.

PE

Hello: Your Amidol/Azo hybrid sounds interesting; is this something you could share for those of us looking for a DIY an alternative to inconsistently available contact-printing papers?

I have the Lupex formula. I know the Azo formula. I have a hybrid formula of these in my book that can be easily made in the home lab. The results are virtually identical in speed to Azo and Lupex paper and with virtually identical curve shape.

Azo and Lupex use different addenda to achieve the same result.

PE

Hello Ron. Are you referring to your "PHOTOGRAPHIC EMULSION MAKING, COATING AND TESTING" book? The Formulary website shows this is out of print/unavailable; is there any way to purchase a copy? The website also mentions a DVD, is this available? Thanks for your work in this area; much appreciated by those of us frustrated by the unpredictable and tenuous availability of commercial contact printing papers.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Both book and DVD are no longer available. However, I gave the few remaining copies I had to Mark Osterman at GEM (George Eastman Museum) as a donation for his classes. Perhaps you can get a copy from him. Several people have.

The formula is a simple Chloride emulsion in gelatin with the curve being adjusted using Iodide. See several published formulas or the book for the exact formulas for grade 0, 1, 2, 3 and 4 Azo papers. Mark and I have tested it and gotten good speed and contrast values with grades 1, 2 and 3.

PE

 

[Eric Rose]

Interesting work. I look forward to your further studies.

 

[surfboard]

Both book and DVD are no longer available. However, I gave the few remaining copies I had to Mark Osterman at GEM (George Eastman Museum) as a donation for his classes. Perhaps you can get a copy from him. Several people have.

The formula is a simple Chloride emulsion in gelatin with the curve being adjusted using Iodide. See several published formulas or the book for the exact formulas for grade 0, 1, 2, 3 and 4 Azo papers. Mark and I have tested it and gotten good speed and contrast values with grades 1, 2 and 3.

PE

Thanks for your reply and the info, Ron. Much appreciated.