Lodima Fine Art Paper--Official reports and Member Responses

Ray Heath · Jul 9, 2008

ok, ok, maybe dupe/d/ing was the wrong word

mislead, misinformed and restrictive may have been a better choices

when two highly regarded artists convince themselves, then others, that the only way to express themselves is to be tied to one type of material, technique, genre and/or presentation is, to me, misleading, illformed and artistically restrictive

rcoda · Jul 9, 2008

Well put.

Ray Heath said:
ok, ok, maybe dupe/d/ing was the wrong word

mislead, misinformed and restrictive may have been a better choices

when two highly regarded artists convince themselves, then others, that the only way to express themselves is to be tied to one type of material, technique, genre and/or presentation is, to me, misleading, illformed and artistically restrictive

photo8x10 · Jul 10, 2008

Good news! Another step to arrive to have the new paper Lodima.
In my opinion to start an "adventure" as Michal and Paula have started, is somethings of extraordinary, because the difficulty weren't unknown, but I've always thought that we will have the paper, a paper of high quality, maybe better than Azo.
I love the idea of e-commerce on the site, and also this little sign is for me a signal of a new step.

Best

Stefano Germi
Italy

Thomas Bertilsson · Jul 10, 2008

In this day and age, I think it's great that someone is bringing one more product to the market, to give the rest of us more choices to suit our needs.
I always thought that Azo was pretty cool because it's so slow. It allows you to print with safelights that are practically as bright as daylight and it's an excellent paper to boot. I have seen Michael and Paula's prints for real, and they really are spectacular. There is something to be said for being an expert at using your materials, knowing it inside and out might teach you more about how to use these materials to achieve what you want.
But I also agree with you Ray, that perhaps all of the other materials on the market might be good enough, and that the source for expressive photography comes from within.

I probably will not try the new paper when it comes out. I shoot roll film, and if the paper is as slow as Azo was, I won't be able to enlarge on it within my means.

- Thomas

Ray Heath said:
ok, ok, maybe dupe/d/ing was the wrong word

mislead, misinformed and restrictive may have been a better choices

when two highly regarded artists convince themselves, then others, that the only way to express themselves is to be tied to one type of material, technique, genre and/or presentation is, to me, misleading, illformed and artistically restrictive

doughowk · Jul 10, 2008

Instead of allowing corporations to restrict how we express ourselves photographically, Michael & Paula's efforts will enable us to expand our artistic expression. They our setting an example for the rest of us to take charge of our materials, whether individually or as collective groups. I for one applaud their efforts, and am looking forward to trying the new paper.

Ray Heath · Jul 10, 2008

doughowk said:
Instead of allowing corporations to restrict how we express ourselves photographically, Michael & Paula's efforts will enable us to expand our artistic expression. They our setting an example for the rest of us to take charge of our materials, whether individually or as collective groups. I for one applaud their efforts, and am looking forward to trying the new paper.

g'day doug

and how do you propose that we, users of limted amounts of these specialist materials, can make the production and sale of these materials economically viable when the "corporations" couldn't

David A. Goldfarb · Jul 10, 2008

If Centennial POP can be made economically viable as it has through small scale manufacturing, so can Lodima.

Photo Engineer · Jul 10, 2008

David;

I can make both POP and Azo in my darkroom but one is far more difficult than the other from a lot of aspects. I think that the length of time it has taken for this effort attests to that.

PE

doughowk · Jul 10, 2008

and how do you propose

The Smith/Chamlee effort is probably the extreme example of taking control of our materials; but there are many lesser efforts.

Many love the new T-Max 400, but Kodak wasn't cutting for ULF. So an individual contacted them, found a retailer/distributer and now there is opportunity for those who want the film in ULF.

Ilford graciously has set up yearly run of FP-4 in ULF. But they didn't include some odd sizes, eg. 2 1/4 X 3 1/4. When approached thru a retailer, they agreed to cut if enough orders.

Ron Mowrey and others have explored ways that the individual can produce their own film &/or paper emulsions.

Then there is the resurging alt photo process movement whose only requirements are chemicals & readily available papers.

Other possibilities would be buying coops.

All this is meant to show that we are not powerless, and we need to applaud those who don't take "not available" as an answer.

Ray Heath · Jul 10, 2008

but doug, all your examples are for an identified market when pre-ordered

David, just how widely available and consistent is the supply of Centenial Pop, where could i buy it off the shelf, in a small quantity, as i need it, in Australia

David A. Goldfarb · Jul 10, 2008

My point is that Centennial POP is not widely or consistently available, but there is a will to make it and a desire to purchase it, so it continues to be made, and those who want it do what they need to do to get it. An Azoish paper is harder to manufacture, as PE says, but I think it has a larger market than Centennial POP has, so if someone has the will and the ability to make it in quantities appropriate to the market, then it can survive too.

Photo Engineer · Jul 10, 2008

David A. Goldfarb said:
My point is that Centennial POP is not widely or consistently available, but there is a will to make it and a desire to purchase it, so it continues to be made, and those who want it do what they need to do to get it. An Azoish paper is harder to manufacture, as PE says, but I think it has a larger market than Centennial POP has, so if someone has the will and the ability to make it in quantities appropriate to the market, then it can survive too.

David;

This is probably what we will see with Lodima as well. It may be available on and off, and difficult to buy in some areas of the world. It has yet to prove itself in keeping and in other physical photographic properties. In fact, as you know, I have been working on those right now and have been for several years. I have posted some of my progress here and it has not been easy.

One of the problems that Michael has reported was bad keeping with the other samples where they start bad, become good, then go bad, or start good and go bad. This is a typical problem that one must overcome with pure chloride emulsions. In fact, an old notebook of mine that I jotted comments in here at home classifies chloride emulsions as experimental except for Azo as late as the 70s. This was due to the keeping problems when using some methods of making the emulsion. Azo was the single success story similar to Agfa Lupex.

PE

Alex Hawley · Jul 10, 2008

Ray Heath said:
ok, ok, maybe dupe/d/ing was the wrong word

mislead, misinformed and restrictive may have been a better choices

when two highly regarded artists convince themselves, then others, that the only way to express themselves is to be tied to one type of material, technique, genre and/or presentation is, to me, misleading, illformed and artistically restrictive

Ray, I think you and some others are making some misinterpretations from perhaps some very sketchy data. My purpose is to not defend Michael A. Smith based upon any personal loyalty, but to simply state some facts that I have obtained first-hand.

1. I have never heard nor read of either Michael or Paula denigrating anyone's personal photographic technique. They have promoted their technique very strongly, but no more strongly that any other highly successful artist. Take your pick of all the other photographers who have written books promoting their techniques. In fact, they have had pt/pd prints made of their work and have engaged in some recent color print work.

2. I have talked to them first-hand, face-to-face concerning the Lodima paper. Like many other successful artists, they feel comfortable only working with specific materials, the ones they have used successfully. Their interest is undoubtedly aimed at getting a replacement for Azo on the market. They were single-handedly responsible for keeping it production for several years after Kodak originally decided to terminate it.

3. One of the primary attractions of Azo and silver chloride papers is that they are so easy to use. Between Azo and Ron Mowrey's emulsion, I have never experienced any other printing emulsion that is so easy to use and get a good print from. I have been frustrated ever since I ran out of Azo because it takes so much more effort to produce good prints than it used to. Now, multiply my two years of experience with Azo times about 20 or 25 to account for Smith/Chamlee's experience with it. Start to get the picture?

Photo Engineer · Jul 10, 2008

Hey Alex, thanks.

How would you like more paper in different grades and on different types of paper with tints?

PE

Tom Hoskinson · Jul 10, 2008

Ray Heath said:
have you even read the crap posted here? and you infer i'm some kind of troll guarding a little kingdom

IMO, you've posted most of the crap, Ray. Looks to me like the troll's shoes fit you very well.

Ray Heath · Jul 10, 2008

well done Tom

where did you dig this up from?

how is this quote relevant to the current discussion?

Tom, maybe you can clarify for me, and i'm sure others are uncertain, as to just what is a "troll"?

i'm sorry that you regard an alternative opinion as crap, sorry to have blighted some holy grail

Alex Hawley · Jul 11, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Hey Alex, thanks.

How would you like more paper in different grades and on different types of paper with tints?

PE

Ready anytime Ron. Thanks!

removed account4 · Jul 11, 2008

doesn't look to me like anyone is being duped.
no one has send money or had cards charged, except
for the folks having the paper made. they have spent
their own time and money to recreate a better version
of the paper they love to work with, and that others
enjoy as well.
i have a bit of fun making prints on azo
and i love making photograms on it too.
i have a bit left but know i will eventually run out
and look forward for lodima to be on the market.

c6h6o3 · Jul 11, 2008

Ray Heath said:
when two highly regarded artists convince themselves, then others, that the only way to express themselves is to be tied to one type of material, technique, genre and/or presentation is, to me, misleading, illformed and artistically restrictive

That would be misleading, but if Michael and Paula had taken so restrictive an attitude as you suggest, they wouldn't be producing limited edition platinum prints from digitally enlarged negatives or the large color portraits that Michael has recently released.

Kirk Keyes · Jul 11, 2008

Maybe they decided to hedge their bets?

Tom Hoskinson · Jul 11, 2008

Ray Heath said:
well done Tom

where did you dig this up from?

how is this quote relevant to the current discussion?

Tom, maybe you can clarify for me, and i'm sure others are uncertain, as to just what is a "troll"?

i'm sorry that you regard an alternative opinion as crap, sorry to have blighted some holy grail

Ray, Troll: An individual who regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that they have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait.

Crap example : when two highly regarded artists convince themselves, then others, that the only way to express themselves is to be tied to one type of material, technique, genre and/or presentation is, to me, misleading, illformed and artistically restrictive.
Taken in context this quote implies that Michael Smith and Paula Chamlee are one type of material, technique, genre artists. That is not case.

Ray Heath · Jul 11, 2008

Tom Hoskinson said:
Ray, Troll: An individual who regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that they have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait.

Crap example : when two highly regarded artists convince themselves, then others, that the only way to express themselves is to be tied to one type of material, technique, genre and/or presentation is, to me, misleading, illformed and artistically restrictive.
Taken in context this quote implies that Michael Smith and Paula Chamlee are one type of material, technique, genre artists. That is not case.

whatever

i maintain that i am giving an alternative view, a different opinion

i'm not the one making personal attacks, i haven't called anyone names

why do so many here throw the accusation of "troll" to stifle debate

convince me with a reasoned, sensible argument

Ray Heath · Jul 11, 2008

c6h6o3 said:
That would be misleading, but if Michael and Paula had taken so restrictive an attitude as you suggest, they wouldn't be producing limited edition platinum prints from digitally enlarged negatives or the large color portraits that Michael has recently released.

i'm not so much suggesting anything as giving an opinion as to my belief in regards to artsitic expression

Ray Heath · Jul 11, 2008

David A. Goldfarb said:
My point is that Centennial POP is not widely or consistently available, but there is a will to make it and a desire to purchase it, so it continues to be made, and those who want it do what they need to do to get it. An Azoish paper is harder to manufacture, as PE says, but I think it has a larger market than Centennial POP has, so if someone has the will and the ability to make it in quantities appropriate to the market, then it can survive too.

and my point David, is that we shouldn't criticise large corporations who will not continue to produce items that are not economically viable

we should not take the demise of specialist materials as a personal affront

"appropriate to the market", there is not enough of a market for a lot of these materials, if we really want analogue photography to survive we may have to start shrinking the range of materials we use and demand

Azo/Type 55/(insert product name) have gone, surely there are other materials just as good

maybe we should devote ourselves to making our own light sensitive materials

maybe we should not be so "precious" about our work

Curt · Jul 11, 2008

If Mr. Smith doesn't say it here first hand it's all oft handed information and just wild guesses.

Lodima Fine Art Paper--Official reports and Member Responses

Ray Heath

rcoda

photo8x10

Thomas Bertilsson

doughowk

Ray Heath

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

Photo Engineer

doughowk

Ray Heath

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

Photo Engineer

Alex Hawley

Photo Engineer

Tom Hoskinson

Ray Heath

Alex Hawley

removed account4

c6h6o3

Kirk Keyes

Tom Hoskinson

Ray Heath

Ray Heath

Ray Heath

Curt

Lodima Fine Art Paper--Official reports and Member Responses

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