Lodima Fine Art Paper--Official reports and Member Responses

Captain_joe6 · Jan 24, 2008

In regards to payments and cashed and uncashed checks, what would be the point of cashing the checks immediately? Say they cashed the checks and invested it all in the R&D of this new paper, but it fell through? You could very well be out of luck. On the other hand, if they spend their own money on R&D, then spend all of your money on the production run, there'd be no waiting on their part for money for the run to come in, there'd be less waiting by you for the paper to get to your door.

Michael A. Smith · Jan 26, 2008

Paula and I have been traveling. Many days without Internet access.

No time to respond to everything.

Brief update: the silver chloride paper project is making headway. We expect to be tresting another sample soon after we return home. Things look good, but we will not allow a product to be brought to the market unless it is at least as good as the paper it is replacing.

Yes, you can make your own emulsion. But that is not realistic if you make more than a few negatives every few months.

Silver chloride emulsions are the simplest type of emulsion to make, but making it on a large scale is a serious undertaking and in the scaling up of the formula problems arise that are not there when only a few sheets are made.

Paula and I ask for your continued patience. With any luck we could possibly have paper by spring of this year.

There are other fine papers out there, but to our eyes, and to those of many others, prints on silver chloride paper have a depth to them that is simply not there, or is only very rarely there, when enlarging paper is used. Any artist wants to use the finest materials they can, those materials that allow for the deepest expression. All of Edward Weston's prints were made on silver chloride paper. Ansel Adams' and Brett Weston's best prints (Ansel's from the late 1930s and early 1940s, and Brett's prints until he begain making enlargements) were all made on silver chloride paper. Those who know these prints and who also know other prints will readily see the difference. Some may prefer looking at prints on enlarging paper. Paula and I prefer prints made on silver chloride paper. Does the paper make the art? Yes and no. Vision comes first, always. But great vision that is realized on inferior materials will not yield a work of art as deep as great vision realized on superior materials.

Michael A. Smith

vet173 · Jan 26, 2008

Thank you Michael.

noseoil · Jan 26, 2008

" Any artist wants to use the finest materials they can, those materials that allow for the deepest expression. All of Edward Weston's prints were made on silver chloride paper." Michael

In one of his daybook, wasn't he bemoaning the loss of platinum paper and then had to switsh to azo?

" If you?re keeping score, you can take out your pencil and scratch in a new record price for Edward Weston. On Wednesday night at Sotheby?s in New York, a rare platinum print of Weston?s ?The Ascent of Angles,? from 1921, sold for $824,000. That just beat out the $822,400 paid in 2005 for a platinum print of Weston?s ?The Breast.? Appraiser and consultant Dale Schultz made the winning bid for ?Ascent? on behalf of an anonymous buyer."

maxbloom · Jan 26, 2008

Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but did Azo have cadmium in it? If so, how much of a long-term shelf-life reduction are we likely to see with Lodima compared to Azo? I know it will generally be very stable b/c it's a slow ag-cl paper. But I was just curious.

Sal Santamaura · Jan 26, 2008

maxbloom said:
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but did Azo have cadmium in it? If so, how much of a long-term shelf-life reduction are we likely to see with Lodima compared to Azo?...

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=11874

PhotoHistorian · Jan 27, 2008

noseoil said:
" Any artist wants to use the finest materials they can, those materials that allow for the deepest expression. All of Edward Weston's prints were made on silver chloride paper." Michael

Edward Weston's all-time favorite paper to print on was Haloid. And Haloid was a projection variable contrast paper made by the company that would later become Xerox. To say ALL of Edward's prints were made on a silver chloride paper is an extreme exadoration . And even the chloride paper Edward did use were not always Kodak Azo. This information was told to me by Cole Weston whom I knew for more than 20 years. Cole knew more about Edward's printing techniques than anyone.

Walker

Michael A. Smith · Jan 27, 2008

Paula and I have used Haloid paper. It is a silver chloride contact printing paper. And it is graded. Edward Weston used Haloid in the mid to late 1940s. At that time it was his favorite paper.

Once he began using glossy papers all of Edward Westons prints were made on silver chloride paper. He used a variety of papers, Azo was only one among them. To my knowledge, he did not use Azo that much, although Brett did. But Azo was the last silver chloride paper made, so it is what we have used.

jgjbowen · Jan 27, 2008

Actually Haloid made both the VC projection paper and the silver chloride contact printing paper. I have a box of each in my possession.

Photo Engineer · Jan 27, 2008

Walker is not entirely correct. Michael is correct.

Haloid made a complete family of papers for both contact and enlargement. The contact papers were chloride and the enlarging papers were chlorobromide. They were the suppliers of papers to the US Government for many years. Many of their papers were coated on an RC base for rapid processing.

AFAIK, they never made a VC paper. All of their papers were graded. The first VC paper (IIRC) was made by Dupont. Haloid/Xerox quit making papers in the mid 60s.

PE

maxbloom · Jan 27, 2008

Sal Santamaura said:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=11874

Thanks but that didn't really answer my question. Anecdotal reports suggest cadmium has an effect on shelf life, though this may be a spurious relationship. I was hoping someone could/would comment somewhat authoritatively, though Ron seems to be dodging the issue for whatever reason.

Photo Engineer · Jan 27, 2008

Cadmium has no effect on shelf life whatsoever, AFAIK. It was used to adjust curve shape. It has a very slight effect on the tone of the silver image in some cases.

Azo paper did not use Cadmium. It used other chemicals to adjust the curve shape.

And, to answer the next post on the referenced URL, the Wilhelm report concerns image stability after processing, not raw stock keeping.

PE

jgjbowen · Jan 28, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
AFAIK, they never made a VC paper. All of their papers were graded. The first VC paper (IIRC) was made by Dupont. Haloid/Xerox quit making papers in the mid 60s.

PE

Hey PE,

It isn't often that we get to teach you something, but I am holding in my hands a box of Haloid Xerox High Speed Projection Printing Photographic Paper, 8x10, SW, Glossy, Contrast Var. It was manufactured for the military and has an expiration date of March 1962.

Photo Engineer · Jan 28, 2008

That is interesting. Thanks. In 1962 at Cape Canaveral, all we had were graded Kodak, Haloid and Ansco papers.

We also had Dupont, but IDK if it was the VC paper or not. What year were VC papers introduced? I know that Dupont did it.

PE

Alex Hawley · Jan 28, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
We also had Dupont, but IDK if it was the VC paper or not. What year were VC papers introduced? I know that Dupont did it.

PE

From what I've read, it was in the early 1940s. The military needed a paper that could be processed rapidly to meet the war demands.

Photo Engineer · Jan 28, 2008

Alex, your answer is for RC paper, but I'm asking about VC (Variable Contrast) papers. Thanks though.

Pe

Alex Hawley · Jan 28, 2008

Photo Engineer said:
Alex, your answer is for RC paper, but I'm asking about VC (Variable Contrast) papers. Thanks though.

Pe

Ahhh, my bad. You're right PE, I was thinking of RC.

Took a quick look at my oldest photo reference book; "Graphic Graflex Photography". Its the tenth edition, copyright 1954. Ansel Adams wrote chapter 7, "Introduction to Printing". He briefly mentions Varigram paper being available.

Photo Engineer · Jan 28, 2008

And therefore, Haloid could have produced a VC paper, but since we used graded Haloid in the AF, and graded Dupont and Kodak, it escaped me that Haloid could have made it, especially in view of Dupont patents.

IDK why we used graded papers though, as it meant bigger inventory.

Thanks for the information.

PE

TheFlyingCamera · Jan 29, 2008

Ron-

probably because "That's the way we do it here". I saw a LOT of that in my five years working for the Air Force- institutional knowledge gets passed down from blue suiter to blue suiter, and nobody is there long enough to really evaluate, redesign, and see through changes. Change happens when the outgoing individual's idea is in sync with the incoming individual's idea for change.

mark · Jan 29, 2008

TheFlyingCamera said:
Ron-
Change happens when the outgoing individual's idea is in sync with the incoming individual's idea for change.

From a systems theory standpoint (What I am doing my doctoral research on) this is funny as hell. All too true, too often in too many Government entities.

Captain_joe6 · Apr 29, 2008

So, its been a few months since we've heard anything, which begs the question: anybody got any new Lodima news to share? Michael?

payral · Apr 29, 2008

Paula and I ask for your continued patience. With any luck we could possibly have paper by spring of this year
That post was on 01/26/2008

Will have to waite a little more…

Amund · Apr 29, 2008

Personally, I don`t mind how long it takes, as long as we end up with a great paper in the end.

Kirk Keyes · Apr 29, 2008

Paula and I ask for your continued patience. With any luck we could possibly have paper by spring of this year

Spring is nearly half over...

vet173 · Apr 30, 2008

Spring hasn't even half started here in Seattle.

Lodima Fine Art Paper--Official reports and Member Responses

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