Local Stores vs Internet Stores

Robert Hall said:

I look at the store and what services they provide. If they are able to give me advice that helps me understand something or helps me in decisions about gear or supplies, I buy from them. However, if I have to go looking elsewhere because they don't carry it, or if I get poor advice or no help at all, or if they charge what I consider unreasonable amounts for supplies or gear, you bet I look other places. I will always give the local place the chance to meet or beat the prices found at competitors.

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What Robert said.

OTOH here I've no idea who the closest real camera shop is. :confused:

In Toronto the nearest camera shop was supported when it made sense. I can't buy what they don't sell or what they over price. I'm perfectly willing to pay more then internet prices. I save shipping. I get it now. I can see it before I leave the shop. All worth some money to me. But at some cutoff [the cutoff varies ] I get pushed to click instead of drive to the shop.

I buy virtually all my films and most other consumable items remotely via phone or web. I do feel a degree of loyalty to the voices on the phone that have serviced my needs reliably and at good prices sometimes for years, and have sometimes gone out of their way to provide exceptional service. Even equipment is largely bought remotely.

Meanwhile there are no local photographic stores that I care about- nothing above Jessop's and one or two other similars that do not understand what service and added value mean and whose days IMO are numbered. This doesn't bother me at all- I see no merit in supporting outlets or channels that combine poor stock availability, no advice that I should value, and poor pricing. If they wish to survive then they need to work out the way the wind's blowing and respond. I honestly feel I have a stronger relationship with the remote suppliers, and certainly I get a much higher standard of discussion on availability, relative film popularity etc.

There are a couple of outlets in London that I use retail or remotely, depending on convenience, whether I fancy a walk or whatever.. Two of these I use because they sell (and hold stock) of things hard to find elsewhere. The other is competitive on new equipment and I'm pretty sure uses web and phone driven volume to sustain competitiveness over the counter. Maybe there's a couple of business models there that could work elsewhere, though the size of the London market doubtless makes it easier.

Finally it is of course possible that an outlet from which you order remotely is someone else's local store. B&H is a case in point- so a decision to buy remotely is not necessarily a strike against retail per se. But in any case it is more important to identify the outlets and channels that serve you well in all respects and do what you can to secure their survival than to assume there's something significant about "local". If Mailshots or Speedgraphic or Discount Films Direct disappeared I'd be really sorry. If all the camera shops in Windsor closed tomorrow it might take me a year to notice.

Robert Hall said:

I look at the store and what services they provide. If they are able to give me advice that helps me understand something or helps me in decisions about gear or supplies, I buy from them. However, if I have to go looking elsewhere because they don't carry it, or if I get poor advice or no help at all, or if they charge what I consider unreasonable amounts for supplies or gear, you bet I look other places. I will always give the local place the chance to meet or beat the prices found at competitors.

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Thats a good point, one store two weeks ago charged me euro 7.50 per roll of Ilford FP4 35mm and they are unhelpful twits. I wouldn't buy from them only in an emergency, as it was. While the guy was getting my change he said 'not many shooting film anymore' to which I answered 'incorrect, not many paying 7.50 per roll'

The other store I like to use couldn't be any more helpful, they are just super people and really committed to Film.

The current biz model is to sell for less over the internet, as you have no overhead (store, rent, employee salries, some taxes, etc) and so we buyers want to shop for less and buy over the 'net. We save a little now, but sooner or later, our towns will become ghost towns, as nobody shops there anymore. I see the number of banks, gas stations, etc. declining in the future, as the model goes generic - ie, Generic Bank, Generic Oil Company, etc. Much less competition (and lower costs) that way. And so it goes...

Paul

Fintan said:

to which I answered 'incorrect, not many paying 7.50 per roll'

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You go boy!

Interesting - my local camera club had a "vendors' night" the other week, and invited the 2 local pro/am camera stores.

They were both asked about film sales - one indicated that while film sales are down overall vs. 6 or 7 years ago, in the last year they've definitely noticed an upswing in sales. The other store, which is much more committed to film, still has paper *and* a variety of darkroom chems/supplies and has some great, knowledgable staff on the analog side, went further and said that their film sales are up 300% over last year (and they sold a fair bit of it even that year, from my understanding).

Both indicated they weren't sure the exact reasons for it, but anecdotally more people are coming back to film from digital, or using specific film for specific looks - such as various b&w films.

I do like to support the one store that actually has people who use film and have a clue, and it's more convenient for chems, but to be honest I've stocked up on expired film from various sources for the time being for experimentation purposes. However, when I am in the one store I do usually grab a roll of something I don't have - like Delta 3200 in 120 format, which I haven't tried yet, or Tmax P3200 or something. They also stock Fuji films, which I haven't played with much.

And, to top it off, the long-time owner of the store maintains a camera "museum" in a back room - just about every analog camera type imaginable, from large-format to Minox (and some sort of kerosene-powered enlarger - very cool). If you see the movie "Capote", the Crown Graphic(s) and Hasselblad used in it came from his collection

I do buy from online stores sometimes for specific things I can't get locally, but overall I'm very fortunate to have such a good resource locally, with generally reasonable prices, especially when shipping is factored in.

The last time I looked into this question, a few years ago, before Ilford's re-birth, the situation was that Ilford required a minimum order of £100, with no exceptions (not even for extra handling fees), and required an order of at least £500 to give the customer the highest discount (which very roughly meant that a big buyer could sell retail for what a small buyer would pay wholesale).

Quite possibly these figures are not precisely accurate any more, but as a general trend they show the more or less exponential pressure which led small photo shops to quit stocking b+w material. I used to try and buy as much b+w material as possible from a local store whose proprietor was a friend of mine, but then I realised that he was barely making a profit on it, placing the orders was additional work that he really didn't need AND I was paying double what I would have paid from a large supplier. Small sellers who charge these high prices are not in fact ripping customers off, but from the customers' point of view, it sure looks like it!

Regards,

David

I have the same problem where I live - Vancouver Canada area so know where you are coming from.

I shoot a lot of film - probably more than $2000.00 a year - and I am not a professional. I made a decision many years ago to invest in B&W developing equipment for my 35mm, 120, 4 X 5, 5inch, 7 inch, and 9.5 inch Aerographic roll films.

I solved the problem regarding the local camera store by using them for my colour processing - although I often buy the film other places and by purchasing as much of my chemicals from them as is possible. I have discussed the amount of purchasing that I do from them, and why, and they seemed to be grateful that I would split it with them. I spend on average at least $50.00 to $100.00 a month with them and they have always treated me very well. They have a good lab - I have told them that - and I use them and don't quibble about the cost as I know that they are very competitive. I would rather deal with someone who knows an over-exposed negative from an over-developed one than get my stuff done at the local soup and chop shop.

In addition I donate some of my "Not Perfect" shots to them for their wall gallery - they seem to appreciate that and maybe it brings in a few more customers to see what new and weird size of negative and print is going to be displayed next - I do a lot of panorama shots - and trust me they don't always turn out!!!! My thoughts are that the more exposure we can give film the better. It is very heartening to be at a show and hear people say in awe "Look at the size of that flippin' negative". Sometimes there are more ways to help out than on a strictly financial scale. It already sounds like you are more than "just a customer". In addition I tell everyone about them and send them as much business as I can.

Just my $0.02 worth on the subject.


Photochucker

It's not always the camera store's fault.

I just received a new Manfrotto 468MGRC4 hydrostatic ball-head from KEH. It holds my Tachihara 8x10 really well as it should because it uses high grade materials and (expensive) complex technology.

My local Camera House got a price off Manfrotto Australia who in turn gets prices off Manfrotto Italy. Every one in the chain of supply has to make a profit at least enough to cover sales costs. The local 468MGRC4 quote was A$629. KEH delivered at A$334 all up.

With all the good will in the world the price difference is too great to buy locally. And can Camera House buy from KEH? Nope, they have a business pattern backed up by commercial agreements.

They simply don't care.

Hi everyone,

When I was looking at a used medium format camera in a store, the salesperson told me :
-why aren't you spending yout money on a new Nikon D80?
-Because I dont like DSLRs.
-How could you know!»
-I own one and it is loosing its value in the corner of my room, abandonned, ditched.

I got my opinion: film is getting killed by marketing, and only marketing.
I saw tons of peoples being convinced by salesperson that digicams are better blah blah blah and that FILM IS DEAD. Don't bother asking, it is dead. Well, I want some... NO!!! IT IS DEAD. There won't be film no more in two years. FILM IS DEAD don't you understand!?!

I live in Ottawa and every salesperson in almost any store will treat you like a dinosaur and ask 200% the price it costs me to order my rolls from Freestyle, including taxes, shipping, and duty fees. The Canadian dollar Is stronger than ever compared to the the US dollar and we are still paying two times as much. Not for me. Especially for Kodak stuff. By the way Dektolis the same price in US and CAN dollars, but a roll of tri-x is 7.25 CAN instead of 3.99 US...

I know that this situation is caused mainly by distributors, but retail stores should fight them to get better prices. In fact they don't because they simply don't care about film photogs.

They don't care bout me? I don't care about them.

They will soon find that selling film for a niche was easyer than to try to compete Walmart, Best-Buy, and Futureshop in selling consumers digicams.

Kristopher that is trying to quit smoking and thats why he's so angry.

I shop at the same store mabman referred to, it is Photo Central in Winnipeg. Great place, and it sure is nice to see several cases of 100 sheet boxes of Ilford paper sitting on the sales floor, and it's fresh inventory, not old stock either.

I'm glad I don't live in Ottawa.

Just as Bob did, people should also promote their 'local camera store' by name. I see so many posts describing the goodness of their 'local camera store' and there is no name, no website link, no address, no city, no contact info whatsoever. As a community dedicated to traditional film photographers, I hate to say we have taken a bit of a role as individual stewards, and this means PROMOTION.

State your 'local camera store' by name and provide contact info whenever you post a message about it. Spend some time to list in the APUG directory: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

As for Ari's question, I see the dilemma. It's one we all face with all goods. Personally, I try to buy as much local produce, meat, fish, eggs and milk as I can from the farmer's market on weekends, I try to buy all my books from the local bookstore, etc... but it is difficult when the variety of offerings isn't as broad, when there are deep discounts available online with convenient free shipping in some cases, and in my case, when I travel so much, I don't have the 'regular time' to shop. The global business model is definitely changing. I don't have an answer.

Regards, Art.

Well…. since you’ve clearly provided quite a bit of support to your local store in the past my question is have they supported you? Do they use your service and/or help you to promote your business? If not then don’t feel at all guilty about getting the best price you can for film from wherever. If you buy from them and they send you customers or use your service personally then by all means buy from them of course. Has the store purchased a print from you? I feel very strongly this is a two way street in business.

I support local business whenever possible but if they don’t do the same to me then I certainly don’t make a point to go out of my way to support them.

That being said I buy some film locally and some film over the web. My local store is very busy and they know that I can get much better pricing online and it’s not really an issue. It’s my understanding that the store makes very little on film anyway but it’s nice to have there.

This issue is currently being debated (in a wider context) in the UK. The government wants to close 2,500 post offices across the country as they are losing money. We are told how POs are more than just a place to buy a stamp, they are a meeting place etc, especially those in rural areas. I always wonder how many of the people complaining actually use their local PO?

I would put the same question to Ari - do you want your local photo shop to stay? If so, use it and persuade as many other people as you can to do the same. If you're not bothered and are happy to get future supplies from elsewhere, dont.

my local camera stores don't really cater to my needs.
i buy seems to be a "special order" ... developer/fixer + film/paper.
if i order my film through my local store they don't give me
as good a price as when i call THEIR main store ( same name but 2 hours away),
even when the local people suggest they are giving me the best price possible.

i'm not even going to mention the "boutique" shops a few towns over that sell
5 year expired film for 2x the price of fresh bought at places like b+h.
we wonder why people are going D - ? shops like this don't even bother selling
fresh film and paper, only outdated + expensive with and additude.

at least you have a local shop, ari. even with risd down the street
and a world known photography department, we don't really have much.

gr82bart said:

Just as Bob did, people should also promote their 'local camera store' by name. I see so many posts describing the goodness of their 'local camera store' and there is no name, no website link, no address, no city, no contact info whatsoever. As a community dedicated to traditional film photographers, I hate to say we have taken a bit of a role as individual stewards, and this means PROMOTION.

State your 'local camera store' by name and provide contact info whenever you post a message about it. Spend some time to list in the APUG directory: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

...

Regards, Art.

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Oh, I agree, and I didn't mention Photo Central specifically because I have it on good authority we will be hearing more from them in the near future, and didn't want to steal their thunder

Not local vs. internet; rather middlemen vs direct

I buy almost all my equipment and consumables online, and I feel no shame or regret in doing so. Even ignoring price differential, my local camera store provides almost zero value to me. And the big internet retailers similarly provide little added value.

We shouldn't be talking about internet vs. online, rather, about middlemen vs. purchasing direct from the producer.

As I've said before, I would rather lose all the camera stores in the world, than lose one film manufacturer. Frankly, I don't know why Ilford, Kodak and others even need wholesalers or retailers any more. I would prefer that as much as possible of my film dollars go to Kodak or Ilford, whom we dearly depend on, rather than to several layers of middlemen.

GGardner said:

I would prefer that as much as possible of my film dollars go to Kodak or Ilford, whom we dearly depend on, rather than to several layers of middlemen.

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I'm sure they are willing to sell direct, how many pallets of film and paper to you want to buy per week.

Bob-D659 said:

I'm sure they are willing to sell direct, how many pallets of film and paper to you want to buy per week.

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Kodak is willing to sell single pro-packs of (some) film directly from their website.

GGardner said:

I buy almost all my equipment and consumables online, and I feel no shame or regret in doing so. Even ignoring price differential, my local camera store provides almost zero value to me. And the big internet retailers similarly provide little added value.

We shouldn't be talking about internet vs. online, rather, about middlemen vs. purchasing direct from the producer.

As I've said before, I would rather lose all the camera stores in the world, than lose one film manufacturer. Frankly, I don't know why Ilford, Kodak and others even need wholesalers or retailers any more. I would prefer that as much as possible of my film dollars go to Kodak or Ilford, whom we dearly depend on, rather than to several layers of middlemen.

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In Japan, Oriental does the direct sale either by online or phone/fax. They were selling their stuff in retail stores until recently, but they finally pulled out. Ilford here, which has found a new distributor, is starting the same thing. But I heard they will also sell through some wholesalers and retail stores.

On the other hand, Fuji and Kodak still use their wholesalers and retail stores, and they have quite wide networks. And that's probably why they can manage to keep supplying their stuff so steadily in the market. Ilford and Oriental have had rough moments in the past, and because of that, it is hard for their consumers to always rely on their stuff.

I don't mind shopping online because I do get online, but I still think, for some or many analog users especially those in their old age who don't use computers, the Internet is not really an option. If these people can't buy the stuff any more, that just doesn't help this shrinking market at all. I find that their prefered habit is to use phone or fax, but usually online stores are just online shopping only and don't offer other options. Oh, well...

When in Idaho I used Boise Photography and Darkroom Supply for some of my stuff. Tom Cooper who owns it does a good job and is worth supporting. Some stuff I did order by phone as Tom didn't carry it and I had to have it shipped to me on a rural Ranch address anyhow so it worked out.
In Utah I would drive to Salt Lake City on occasion to buy at Pictureline. Some stuff they would have to order in. If I have to wait a week I can order in from B&H at a lower price and I did that. If I have to wait and then drive an hour and a half to two hours why not have it come to me directly?
Now I find myself in an even more remote location as far as camera stores go and everything is phone or internet ordering. No camera stores within two hours driving and the one that is that close has never seen a box of 5x7 film and doesn't know what Ilford is.
So, I order from B&H, Calumet, Freestyle, Bostick & Sullivan and Artcraft Chemicals. All are reliable, easy to deal with and continue to get what dollars I do spend.
If only I had a place close enough to drive to like Boise Photo & Darkroom Supply it would be nice.

I just got off the phone with a merchant from the Greek Ilford represenative Damkalidis in Athens.
I asked her about HP5+ in 120 and the final price she gave me for a large quantity is 3.37 euros. She was shocked to learn that I can get it from Germany (Phobatec) for 2.29.
They also don't stock any "unpopular" items such as the new Ilford products (Warmtone developer, selenium, etc) and PanF+ in 120.
She told me that the market for BW in Greece, three large companies, is very specific about the products they ask for and she dares not make a large order that might not sell.

So, it comes down to:
- Items are overpriced
- Stock is very limited in quantity and variation
- All other requests are made with "special orders"
- Conservatively restricted to old major customers and not interested in new ones or expending their market
- One can get materials in an emergency but only if they don't ask for much

In the end, it doesn't make sense to buy from a store like Damkalidis.
If I am going to order, instead of buying from the present stock, I am still restricted to large orders and from another E.U. merchant.
For Damkalidis and Ilford then, the market remains as such in Greece as since I don't buy from locals, I am not part of the greek film market.
Considering then that such stores have cornered their niche in very specific customers, maybe a couple commercial and school customers, in the end it looks like a business plan of strict survival with a short future. After all, even if those customers don't go digital, they could well be like me and order cheaper from abroad. After all, they are not the customer who will walk in the store, buy a handful of film, a couple bottles of chemicals and a pack of paper. Yet, they are the market of the local store. What products they display on their shelves are those that they are selling. For slow bulk orders, one can order online and has no need of the local store.

So it seems that the future will lie with direct orders from the manufacturer or a low priced middleman and analog products will disappear from the local photo store.
That means that:
a) the film market will become invisible
b) it will not grow but steadily shrink
c) film will not be available for purchase when needed, such as when traveling to another locality
d) prices will rise even more
e) to be able to shoot film you will need to make large orders which will take time, will need a lot of money beforehand and have to be stored and kept well
f) amateurs and students will have a very hard time justifying the use of film
g) if you run out of materials while on a job, you are screwed. Very bad for professionals
h) film photographers will be even more isolated and estranged
i) manufacturers will also be distanced from their markets
j) the irony of not having a computer and an internet connection will make it impossible to be an analog photographer
k) hard time traveling with lots of film which will be at least twice X-Rayed

...do I forget anything?

Ari,
How does the current situation compare with the recent past? Could a visitor, for example, easily buy a roll of 120 FP4 through-out Greece 20 years ago?

markbb said:

Ari,
How does the current situation compare with the recent past? Could a visitor, for example, easily buy a roll of 120 FP4 through-out Greece 20 years ago?

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20 years ago I was still learning to walk on two legs and my knowledge of the photography market was very little.
I can ask though.

I do personally remember that not long ago, maybe two-three years ago, I could walk in one of the common one-hour-photo-consumer-cameras-passport-weddings-we-do-everything store and could buy color and BW film in 135 and maybe 120. Also they did have few bottles of Ilford chemicals and some paper.
Not anymore.

Ari,
I am just trying to get a feel for how much things have changed in Greece. My home town in England, Hereford, is not very large (around 60,000), but it does serve a largish area and attracts a fair number of tourists. When I last visited I could not buy a roll of 120 B&W film. 10 years ago there were at least 1/2 a dozen shops that would stock it.