Local Stores vs Internet Stores

arigram · Mar 24, 2008

I have been in an ethical and economical dilemma for a little bit now and want to know where you stand.

There is a single store in my hometown that sells film stuff.
I buy my Ilford paper and chemicals from her and often other equipment as well. The owner of the store passed away recently due to cancer and left it to his wife. His widow and he was very friendly and extremely accommodating when I got almost all my present equipment, including most of my Hasselblad and studio kit through them. Sometimes I will order something from abroad that isn't sold in Greece, but my dilemma concerns buying something the local store offers, but I can find online a lot cheaper.

I had no second thoughts about ordering a thousand euros worth of PanF+ 120 as its not sold in Greece, but I need now to restock my most common FP4+ and HP5+, which go here for almost double the price.

I want to support the local store, but at the same time, since I never get less than a few 10-film bricks, have to also think of my pockets, which are hardly deep.

I guess I will continue buying paper and chems and maybe a few rolls on an emergency, but with large orders, my hands are tied.

You have the usual problem then:
No stock and high prices, no customers.
Yet, local photo store owners can't compete in this problematic market.
Support them, so one can still have a film market close by, but at what cost?
When does it stop being good business practice and becomes a charity?
What do you think?

Dan Henderson · Mar 24, 2008

Ari: your desire to support your local photography store is admirable. Have you approached the owner for a quote for purchasing such a large amount of film? Perhaps they will give you a price that is closer to the internet price.

arigram · Mar 24, 2008

FirePhoto said:
Ari: your desire to support your local photography store is admirable. Have you approached the owner for a quote for purchasing such a large amount of film? Perhaps they will give you a price that is closer to the internet price.

She does what she can: she will give me a discount when possible and recently sold me a few expired rolls for half a price.
But, the store is a small one and there aren't really customers for BW film like myself. Any time I've been there, others only buy albums for their weddings and baptisms.
She is also just a distributor. For example, for Ilford stuff she has to go through the main representative in Athens, who doesn't have the greatest stock or best prices to start with.
I don't think she can do anything, especially match a very low price from a store in Germany.

Sino · Mar 24, 2008

Apart from some exceptions because of time [when I need something "right here, right now"] I buy almost exclusively from the net. Even for small items/quantities and the shipping included, it is much cheaper with the dollar going down.

I would like to help the last local store that brings b&w materials too, but I can't afford to pay 7-8 euros per roll of film, or 60 euros for printing paper. It's not like I have an option, when I'm getting paid 650 euros per month.

I'm interested to hear from you guys, how are things in other countries? I wonder of that pretty often, because it seems so damn difficult here in Greece being in any side of the game [shop owner, client, amateur, professional photographer] and using analog photography with these prices.

-Sino.

polaski · Mar 24, 2008

If you can afford to support your local store, then do it. If it is beyond your means, then welcome to the 21st Century. At least your intentions are pure, if not your pocketbook.

snegron · Mar 24, 2008

There is no way that you are her only client. If so, she would have either offered you a partnership or gone bankrupt long ago.

As many labs have done in order to stay in business, she will probably have to start printing images from digital sources (oh no, I said the "D" word). There have been sevral labs that have gone 90-10 in terms of their output (90% digital-10% analog). This might be the road that lab owner might need to follow in order to stay in business.

On the bright side, if she can still cater to your film needs despite going mainstream, you will be lucky to have a film lab so close to your house.

As for buying things from her, remember, she has to have other clients who are consuming other products in order for her to stay in business. Buy bulk from your online source, buy more specialized stuff from her.

Sino · Mar 24, 2008

snegron,

You are right, but I believe that this logic has made b&w films and materials so hard to find and so expensive here in Greece. If we keep not buying what they sell, they won't sell it at all. One might ask: if you don't intend to buy the stuff why should they keep selling it? I think that's the dilemma, you can't always keep track and order film and materials a month before you intend to use them...

We can't have it all, can we?

-Sino.

arigram · Mar 24, 2008

snegron said:
There is no way that you are her only client. If so, she would have either offered you a partnership or gone bankrupt long ago.

I am not her only customer, that's for sure. She tells me that she sells the Ilford products for medical reasons, but that's also a dying market.
The store is not retail: its for professionals. But as professionals have all turned to digital, she can't sell even Polaroid for passport snaps anymore.

The point is not that specific store, is what Sino said:
its about all the local stores around the world that are struggling to survive, but its also about the film photographers who can't afford too high a price.

So, how does this market work?
Should we let the local stores die and any chances of new photographers picking up film?
What are the chances that someone will learn about film photography when they have no access
to film save for buying large packages online and paying for shipping? That doesn't seem to work,
unless you are all ready very dedicated.
What do you do when you run out of film all of a sudden, especially visiting another city?
How do we photographers deal with the situation when we can't give away money just to support them (and not ourselves)?

I would honestly like to hear from people from inside the business.
What is Ilford's plan? Fuji's? Kodak's?
Do they care? Or have they already put all the eggs in the online/franchise scheme?

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 24, 2008

I'm very fortunate to have B&H as my local shop, but when I'm traveling, I try to buy film from small shops as needed, both to avoid excess X-ray exposure in airports and to support those shops.

snegron · Mar 24, 2008

David A. Goldfarb said:
I'm very fortunate to have B&H as my local shop, but when I'm traveling, I try to buy film from small shops as needed, both to avoid excess X-ray exposure in airports and to support those shops.

You are way too lucky! B&H is the ultimate toy store! I think that it should be included in New York's Tourism Guides as a must-see attraction together with the Statue of Liberty, Empire State Building, etc.

MurrayMinchin · Mar 24, 2008

I'm lucky (?) as it's a 16 hour drive to the nearest stores which sell paper or 4x5 film. I love the Internet!

Murray

mark · Mar 24, 2008

There was one local store near where I live who sold film. As the film users dropped off, their prices went up drastically, until, as they put it, the money they would lose by getting rid of film altogether would be less than they would lose throwing away stock.

These are changing times, no doubt. As much as I would like to support the local guy, it is difficult when the local guy does not meet me part way. I do not have to just accept huge price increases.

Ari, you might tell the shop keeper that you have a large order and why you canot buy from her. I find it interesting, though, that she is even higher than cost of film and the cost of shipping combined. If I am going to be in Albuquerque (the nearest bigish city to me) I will buy film because it is cheaper than buying with shipping. But, I will not go there specifically for film or any photo related stuff because the cost of gas is higher than the cost of shipping.

23mjm · Mar 24, 2008

I have had the same dilemma. Sadly to say I looked at the facts in my case. 1-photography is "just" a hobby. 2-my money doesn't come out of a bottomless pit. So I go for who has the most bang for the buck. I have found that the LCS (local camera store) is cheaper or the same price on some stuff, then I buy it there. But most of the time the internet is cheaper even if you factor shipping in and all. It is what it is--no one is paying me to take photos-I can't write it off-so I go with the best deals

eclarke · Mar 24, 2008

Face it, the internet is a merchandising whore. There is always one person who will sell something for almost no profit, what happens when this mentality affects your livelihood? In the long term it means thousands of people working for crappy "globalized" wages and making one person rich. In the U.S. we have people holding $30 billion+ and other people eating from garbage cans...Evan Clarke

MattKing · Mar 24, 2008

Would it pay the store owner to join in with you on your internet purchase - she gets stock, you get film, both save on shipping?

Matt

Sino · Mar 24, 2008

That's another possible turn; I've often wondered why wouldn't a shop order from the net instead of the local dealer, as they would have greater profit. Maybe it takes too much of involvement for something they consider rather dead.

I see it as an attitude, from not all but most dealers and shop owners. "It's an almost dead market with a few obsessed people who WILL pay whatever we ask them to anyway, so why bother?".

-Sino.

david b · Mar 24, 2008

I have two stores here in Albuquerque and one in Santa Fe.

Depending on my attitude and whether or not I feel like being treated like a moron, I buy here in Albuquerque.

I buy a lot of stuff from the Santa Fe Camera Center.

If it's a last minute item, I get it here in town. Their prices are normally a lot higher than B&H or elsewhere even when shipping is added.

Edwardv · Mar 24, 2008

MattKing said:
Would it pay the store owner to join in with you on your internet purchase - she gets stock, you get film, both save on shipping?

Matt

I like this method, both of you can be winners.

I try to support my local camera store, Service Photo, even if some items cost more, even wait for special orders knowing I can get them faster from BH without a special order. There are a couple of items they just do carry so I will go else where to obtain them. It is my hope they will continue to provide B&W film, paper, and chemicals for a long time.

Good luck in solving your situation.

23mjm · Mar 24, 2008

eclarke said:
Face it, the internet is a merchandising whore. There is always one person who will sell something for almost no profit, what happens when this mentality affects your livelihood? In the long term it means thousands of people working for crappy "globalized" wages and making one person rich. In the U.S. we have people holding $30 billion+ and other people eating from garbage cans...Evan Clarke

The Internet is just a tool, a source and ultimately it is what we make it. The deals on the internet directly affect my livelihood. The cheaper prices I often find make it so I can shoot more, print more, and enjoy photography more. This is very good for my mentality. I do try to shop locally I/we need our LCS's I work hard to earn my money and want to make it go as far as possible. About the 30+billion$ people they earned it--good for them.

Shawn Rahman · Mar 24, 2008

Sino said:
I see it as an attitude, from not all but most dealers and shop owners.

-Sino.

You are ABSOLUTELY correct. And things like this have made me worry less about keeping the local stores viable.

I think about the current situation with Samy's Camera where I am currently located in Southern California. Their store prices sometimes range 20%-30% and even higher on some items than their internet sales. For example - a Domke bag I was looking at is $59 on their website, and over $90 in their store. When asked about whether they can meet their own internet price for an instore purchase, they apologized, stating that the internet operations is completely separate in terms of bookkeepping, tax setup, inventory, etc.

This was so disappointing to me that I went back to ordering from B&H. At least when I was living in NY, B&H was selling their stuff instore at the same prices they were selling online.

I am willing to pay extra on some items to keep the local stores in business. But there has to be a limit.

realitysandwich · Mar 24, 2008

I manage a local camera shop (we do have 9 stores) which still carries 4x5, 120, and an assortment of darkroom stuff. I have a few customers with specific needs that I will fill special orders for or do my best to stay competitive with internet pricing. On most things I can stay very competitive, but the tough thing is none of us make the margins on darkroom/film sales that we used to and it is becoming more and more difficult to justify carry them. Although that being said I'm hoping that as more and more of the smaller shops start to turn into digital mini labs that stores like mine will be able to absorb those customers and keep film and darkroom equipment on our shelves.

Fintan · Mar 24, 2008

I certainly couldn't afford a thousand euros of PanF and would shoot much smaller quantities. I did do the internet shop thing for a while but now I prefer to buy local.

There are some great internet stores in the UK Channel Islands but I doubt they will ever be able to supply me with a 5L bottle of fixer.

Why not split your big order of PanF, to the internet retailer and some to the local shop?

Robert Hall · Mar 24, 2008

I look at the store and what services they provide. If they are able to give me advice that helps me understand something or helps me in decisions about gear or supplies, I buy from them. However, if I have to go looking elsewhere because they don't carry it, or if I get poor advice or no help at all, or if they charge what I consider unreasonable amounts for supplies or gear, you bet I look other places. I will always give the local place the chance to meet or beat the prices found at competitors.

firecracker · Mar 24, 2008

arigram said:
When does it stop being good business practice and becomes a charity?

This is an interesting point. But charity is something that you just give and not lose. So, if you already feel you've been loosing something, it isn't charity at all...

I mean this is where we should consider what the reasonble prices are for the products we consume in general. How much is too expensive and how much is not? And also do we really wanna buy things real cheap, I mean the cheapest all the time?

nc5p · Mar 24, 2008

There are two local stores that sell film and paper. Both are getting smaller and smaller inventories of the traditional products. Some of the salespeople are a pain because I still do traditional. At least on the web nobody is going to criticize you for how you make images, be at film to paper, hybrid, or fully digital.

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