loading IR in the light? use a tent?

eddie gunks · Sep 23, 2007

hello,
what do you guys do about loading your IR film in daylight? i read you can fog it that way. what are your experiences? i have shot IR before and done a "quick change" and did not think i saw any problems....although i have small black spots on my film! it was barely expired, two different processing people (me and another) so i am not sure if it was cause it was expired or what. it did not seem fogged but spotted badly. i used hc110 to develop it.
should i worry? how about using a harrison tent? any thoughts? ideas? suggestions? i will be using it at a wedding this coming weekend.

thanks

eddie

Travis Nunn · Sep 23, 2007

I've only shot IR in 120 format. I've loaded/unloaded it in subdued light, usually turning my back to the sun so that no bright light gets to it, never experienced any fogging. I've not shot IR in 35mm, but I've always read that you need to load 35mm IR in complete darkness.

pentaxuser · Sep 23, 2007

Which IR film Eddie? If its Kodak HIE then the book I've got says: Load in complete darkeness. Likewise for unloading and place in special cassette until ready for developing.

In the field so to speak would mean a changing bag or finding a light tight room.

Same advice given for Maco. Only with Konica( is it still made?) and Ilford SFX can you get away with subdued light.

pentaxuser

keithwms · Sep 23, 2007

I load the Rollei stuff in subdued light i.e. shade. I used to use a changing bag, but found that unnecessary. It is important to make sure that it is tightly wound (speaking of 120 film now), and it did reveal some gaps in my darkslide lining!

Robert Hall · Sep 23, 2007

Harrison tents are not IR proof. Trust me on this one.

One should used a rubberized changing bag but they are hard to find. Many of the inexpensive bags are nylon which in some cases is transparent to IR.

I have used a dark cloth over a sweatshirt (big one) under the shade and I have been successful, but I wouldn't rely on it.

The black spots can be from your pressure plate if they are uniform, btw. Some people cover it with a smoother material to get rid of the "spots".

Best of luck,

eddie gunks · Sep 23, 2007

thanks so far. the spots show up more on certain frames. maybe the pressure plate is to blame. i am shooting HIE 35mm. what could i use on my pressure plate? now i am beginning to worry about solving this problem. i never thought about the pressure plate! damn! i am shooting an N90S.

eddie

Robert Hall · Sep 23, 2007

Ha! I know! It sucks.

Some use a piece of black electricians tape, others use foil (like aluminum) tape. I don't know which does which as I haven't enjoyed the problem.

Anyone? Anyone?

DaveOttawa · Sep 23, 2007

eddie gunks said:
hello,
what do you guys do about loading your IR film in daylight? i read you can fog it that way. what are your experiences? i have shot IR before and done a "quick change" and did not think i saw any problems....although i have small black spots on my film! it was barely expired, two different processing people (me and another) so i am not sure if it was cause it was expired or what. it did not seem fogged but spotted badly. i used hc110 to develop it.
should i worry? how about using a harrison tent? any thoughts? ideas? suggestions? i will be using it at a wedding this coming weekend.

thanks

eddie

Kodak HIE: I fogged about 6 frames when I loaded in subdued light. Never fogged in a change bag (rubberised, is ther any other sort, I've not seen one, readily available i camera stores here) or darkroom with safelights off (many rolls).
Maco 820: 1 roll, seemed OK in daylight despite the instructions which I didn't see to load in darkrness.
Black spots: are they on the film or prints? Pinholes do occur in HIE which gives black spots on prints. Seems to relate to how long film has been stored unrefrigerated: longer = more pinholes.

Robert Hall · Sep 23, 2007

Dave,

One issue you may not be considering is the lack of anti-halation layer in the HIE. Light seems to hit it and light pipe down the roll. Some have found an entire roll ruined from it. Others have found that the felt used on the canister can either reflect or absorb IR. This has had some effect on what has happened to the leaders and beyond on IR films.

cheers

DaveOttawa · Sep 23, 2007

Robert Hall said:
Dave,

One issue you may not be considering is the lack of anti-halation layer in the HIE. Light seems to hit it and light pipe down the roll. Some have found an entire roll ruined from it. Others have found that the felt used on the canister can either reflect or absorb IR. This has had some effect on what has happened to the leaders and beyond on IR films.

cheers

I expect it is a bit of both but mainly the fact that the felt is transparent to IR, if you photograph black textile with HIE it normally comes out white or at best very pale grey, i.e. the black dye (mixture) is not IR opaque. I expect the felt is likewise not IR opaque. Fortunately it doesn't matter, just load in complete darkness or a change bag and no problems with fogging!

eddie gunks · Sep 23, 2007

okay. looks like a darkroom or i am gambling.

as far as putting tape or foil on my pressure plate?!?!?!!? what about scratches? damn!

the black dots are on the negs. all the negs have them. only some show up on the prints. i think it is probably a pressure plate problem. sounds logical. i am going to pull out my K1000 and see how the PP looks. maybe i will be shooting my trusty old K1000 with IR......man i love my K1000.....
eddie

keithwms · Sep 23, 2007

I don't think you'll get random spots from halation.

I recall a friend of mine seeing spots on large format HIE and we thought it was an underlying problem with the sheets of film themselves. That was fairly old film, so my diagnosis was those pesky cosmic rays Perhaps static discharges can make spots too.

Frankly, I think you're barking up the wrong tree with halation, which doesn't produce sharp spots, as far as I know.

You definitely don't want to put foil on your pressure plate, that will merely reflect even more IR back into your film. And scratch it too.

Electrical tape might lessen halation, but before resorting to something that will make your plate all gummy, I think you need to do one more diagnostic: next time when you shoot a roll, just crank through the last few frames (i.e. don't expose them) and develop normally. If you have spots on those blank frames then obviously it's not halation.

If you see spots on unexposed frames then there are two possibilities, underlying damage of the film, or (a wild guess) static issues.

I think it's those pesky cosmic rays again....

Robert Hall · Sep 24, 2007

This has been hashed over for years, here is a good resource on IR Film and what not.

http://www.cocam.co.uk/CoCamWS/Infrared/INFRARED.HTM

And on pressure plates and the like:

http://www.cocam.co.uk/CoCamWS/Infrared/INFRARED.HTM#CAMERA

And even more...

http://www.a1.nl/phomepag/markerink/mainpage.htm

There you go. More on IR than one would ever want to know.

I have a little blurb on my home page as well.

Cheers,

Shmoo · Sep 24, 2007

Perhaps it's the camera and not the development method/developer. What camera are you using? Some cameras cause problems with HIE in the sprocket areas because they use IR sensors...there's a list of cameras somewhere on the web that tells which models cause problems.

eddie gunks · Sep 24, 2007

AAARRRRGGGGHHH! thanks Rob for the links. it seems that my second idea was to use my K1000. well from the links they specifically mention the K1000 as a potential preassure plate problem. i iwll try and upload some pics today and i will test my camera again tomorrow and see what i come up with....including loading in daylight

sly · Sep 24, 2007

I've had problems with black spots on HIE that seem directly related to age of film/film storage issues. I've had problems with mottling on past dates HIE that had been well stored. This is a film in which the dates seem to matter. Time from exposure to development comes into play too.
I've always loaded in darkroom or changing bag. I once improvised (forgot the changing bag) with a nylon/fleece winter coat, in the shade, and fogged 1/3 of the film - not recomended. My 2 cents, Sly

eddie gunks · Sep 24, 2007

i have just put 120 backing paper on my K1000 pressure plate. i sure hope it workd. i did not have the stones to do it to my nikon N90S as this is my main shooter. (i have 1 for a back up but i just do not feel i can risk it) i taped it on the back of the PP. any other suggestions? thanks so far.

eddie

DaveOttawa · Sep 24, 2007

Mythbusting

eddie gunks said:
i have just put 120 backing paper on my K1000 pressure plate. i sure hope it workd. i did not have the stones to do it to my nikon N90S as this is my main shooter. (i have 1 for a back up but i just do not feel i can risk it) i taped it on the back of the PP. any other suggestions? thanks so far.

eddie

I would be very surprised if this has any benefit and may cause problems in film plane location so my suggestion would be take the tape off!
You say black spots, if these are on prints they are white spots, or holes at the film emulsion level. Tape on the PP has no way to influence these.
My belief based on what I've observed shooting many rolls of HIE over at least 10 years as well as teaching workshops using it and so seeing it shot in many different cameras is that the black spot problem does correlate quite well with film storage conditions, before and after exposure. A technical rep at Kodak told me that was their belief as well when I phoned them about it.
The only camera I've seen cause a problem was a Canon model with an IR counter, it fogged a bit along one edge, even that was usable if you factored it in when shooting.
I've never taped over the clear film window in the cam back (if there is one) either on any camera a student has brought to a workshop; ther have been no fogging problems so far.

IMHO HIE is way easier to shoot with than is often made out, key points seem to be:

Use fresh film if possible
Refrigerate before use then process as quickly as you can after (hours/days not weeks)
Load/unload in the dark (darkroom or change bag)
Use a red filter when shooting in daylight (orange will often work, don't need the black 89B ones but they will work if you want)
Experiment with EI to find a setting that gives you the negatives you like (lower EI = lower contrast+ bigger grain, higher EI = the reverse, figure it out for yourself and don't just go with anyone else's suggested EI).
Be prepared for a bit more work when printing and to sacrifice some highlight and shadow detail for the most dramatic IR look prints.

Hope this helps, have fun and post some shots when you can!

PS, Just looked at Robert Hall's site, the link is above, you should check out the IR How To part because it looks like it's written from real experience, thank you Robert for your generosity in putting that on your site.

eddie gunks · Sep 24, 2007

thanks dave,

i am at a lose. i have 2 rolls of fresh HIE for the wedding. i do not want to test with that (or buy new at my local rip off store!). i am going to shoot some of my old (1 year) HIE. i have some other also expired HIE from a different batch that i will try also. i think i will try the other batch in my Nikon and my original batch in my K1000 with the backing paper in place. i will shoot he K1000 to=day and soup em tonight and try and scan an image tomorrow. i will shoot the nikon tomorrow and soup that night. looks like i got some work ahead of me.

i thought i was on top of this by just ordering new film. i would hate for it to be a backing plate issue all tis time......i hope it is just old film.

what 35mm cameras have you guys had success shooting HIE in?

thanks again.

eddie

i checked my neg. the spots on the neg seem to match the PP spots. they are way too uniform to be dust.

eddie gunks · Sep 24, 2007

okay, some scans i found. maybe it is no the PP.

the first is the worse. it is the longest expired stuff. the second is the same batch just taken earlier last year.

eddie

eddie gunks · Sep 24, 2007

here is the second shot

DaveOttawa · Sep 24, 2007

eddie gunks said:
okay, some scans i found. maybe it is no the PP.

the first is the worse. it is the longest expired stuff. the second is the same batch just taken earlier last year.

...i thought i was on top of this by just ordering new film...

eddie

Oh dear. These are the worst HIE pinholes I've ever seen. The pattern looks random to me = NOT the pp.
As far as I can tell from the scan exposure looks like something you can work with though.
New film will probably be a lot better if it's been stored cool since purcahse and is processed promptly after exposure, so far your results seem to point to aged film as a factor.
Personally I've shot w Nikon F601 & FM2, Voigtlander R2 & L with no problems I could connect with the camera, students have used all sorts of SLR's old & new with no cam problems (other than the known Canon counter issue).

keithwms · Sep 24, 2007

Shooting IR with a rangefinder is a real pleasure. I never cared to do it with an SLR, I tried but found it too cumbersome.

Anyway, just for comparison, here are some hole-patterns seen by Walter Ash in aged HIE:

http://www.lightcafe.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=6334

(Walter hope you don't mind...)

PhotoBob · Sep 24, 2007

I have used a Harrison tent quite a bit and have not had any problems with my IR film, i.e., loading and unloading.
However, I have my tent set up in my garage and not outside.

winger · Sep 24, 2007

I've used a darkroom, a dark closet, and a changing bag (not rubberized, but in shade) to load HIE. Each has worked fine. I've also used HIE a year past its exp date (fridged the whole time) and not had spots like those. Maybe I was lucky?

loading IR in the light? use a tent?

eddie gunks

Travis Nunn

pentaxuser

keithwms

Robert Hall

eddie gunks

Robert Hall

DaveOttawa

Robert Hall

DaveOttawa

eddie gunks

keithwms

Robert Hall

Shmoo

eddie gunks

sly

eddie gunks

DaveOttawa

eddie gunks

eddie gunks

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