Lithium battery problems

[xkaes]

Not intending to be rude and contradict, but there is one rule that might be useful: follow the manufacturer's recommendation.

That's great if you happen to have a recommendation from the manufacturer, but if the manufacturer doesn't list a particular kind of battery as "good" or "bad", you're stuck, if the gear was made before the type of battery you want to use came on the market, you're stuck, if you buy the gear used without the manufacturer's recommendation, you're stuck..........

 

[Dirb9]

Although the higher OCV of the LiFeS2 system is 1.8 volts, the nominal or rated voltage is 1.5 volts which makes it a suitable replacement for alkaline and nickel systems. The battery voltage will drop when it is placed under load. For this reason, the higher OCV will typically not damage electronic components, but device designers should take into consideration that the OCV of fresh batteries can range from 1.79 to 1.83V. LiFeS2 batteries fully meet the ANSI specification for a 1.5V battery.

Energizer's own documentation (linked here) sends somewhat of a mixed message... Apart from the flash application and overheating, I've never had an issue, nor heard of a device being damaged by lithium batteries, the concept seems to be primarily a theoretical issue. Personally, I'd (and do use) use the lithium batteries and not worry about it most cameras will draw enough current to drop the working voltage down to the same level as a alkaline battery. In your specific case, here's a thread with someone discussing the exact question you had, Minolta tech support's opinion, and the conclusion seemed to be that they work fine.

 

[lxdude]

How does all this discussion help the average consumer who is just trying to figure out if a given lithium battery will work in a given piece of equipment -- or actually damage it?

The manual is the only way to know for sure, unless the manufacturer contradicts it.

 

[xkaes]

, here's a thread with someone discussing the exact question you had, Minolta tech support's opinion, and the conclusion seemed to be that they work fine.

That gives a mixed message:

The thread you refer to are in fact from me.
I've extensively investigated this matter with the Minolta Hong Knong dealer. The Hong Kong dealer had discussed with the main technical support of the Minolta Japan company. Their answer is no. You are not recommended to use the Lithium AA from Energizer because they consider that the voltage is too high and the current its going to generate inside the camera might damage the circuit. This is at least their worry at the moment.
I've tried at the end that by using the dummy battery to lower down the overall voltage it may be OK, but to my surprise, the voltage of the 5 AA Energizer Lithium drop too rapidly and by just less than 5 minutes the camer will show the low battery sign on the LCD display.
I have also been so brave as to use the 6 pieces of the Energizer AA for a whole afternoon. There has not been any problem for the whole afternoon but I do noticed that the Compact flash part ( the hand grip part) is hotter than when you are using the original Minolta NP-400 Lithium ion batteries. I'm using the 1GB IBM microdrive at tha moment I think it might be related to the high power drainage of the IBM microdrive. Last week, I brought a 512MB Ultra II San Disk CF card, it looks like that the heat thing disappeared.
I had asked many famous local DC shops in Hong Kong ( 1. DC fever 2. Wing Shing, 3. Man Shing ), all dealers said that it should be OK to use the Lithium AA from Energizer according to their experience but when I told them the message from Minolta HK, they all shut their mouth.
My conclusion at the moment is : Its' probably still OK and the risk is not excessive if you really need to use the Lithium AA disposable for a while, but no one can garrantee what might happen for prolong use.
I hope this will help you.

In it, it makes referrence to the NP-400 rechargeable lithium-ion batteries for the Minolta A1 & A2 battery packs. Those -- or AA batteries -- can be used in the BP-400 battery pack. My question is about the BP-200, not the BP-400. The BP-400 is designed for Lithium batteries. The BP-200 says DON'T USE THEM.

 

[xkaes]

The manual is the only way to know for sure, unless the manufacturer contradicts it.

Read posts #25 & #26.

 

[BrianShaw]

That's great if you happen to have a recommendation from the manufacturer, but if the manufacturer doesn't list a particular kind of battery as "good" or "bad", you're stuck, if the gear was made before the type of battery you want to use came on the market, you're stuck, if you buy the gear used without the manufacturer's recommendation, you're stuck..........

Absolutely correct! One of the thought-processes I use when there is a dearth of information is to consider equivalent technology for the age of the gear. In this case you're not stuck as there are plenty of non-Lithium batteries available that would be appropriate.

 

[MattKing]

This has probably been referenced earlier in the thread, but a lot of products were manufactured and their manuals were written before non-rechargeable lithium batteries weren't even a "gleam in their creators' eyes".
For example, most of the Mamiya 645 camera line.

 

[xkaes]

On a similar note, I discovered some interesting details regarding rechargeable Lithium-Ion batteries -- NOT the NON-rechargeable Lithium Energizer batteries.

The instructions from Minolta for the very common BP-400 rechargeable Lithium-Ion battery states:

Never store a fully charged battery -- that's problematic, because I will typically charge two or three for an outing, but often only need one or two -- and have one or two fully charged left over that I have to "store" for a later date. They don't say what the problem there is with "storage". Since I typically leave a charged battery in the camera, isn't that storage? And if I remove the charged battery from the camera, isn't that storage? Again, they never define "storage" -- I assume it means charged but not used for an unspecified period of time (in or out of the camera).

Stored batteries will eventually discharge, and if fully discharged may no longer be rechargeable -- so charge batteries for at least five minutes every six months. This is something I can put on my calendar, but kind of a nuisance.

 

[lxdude]

Read posts #25 & #26.

Yep, I did. Just a few words of caution.

 

[xkaes]

I agree that a design that draws enough current to be limited by the battery properties is not good, but I think many of the devices in question were designed before lithium AA batteries were commonly available, and the warning stickers are essentially a retrofit. That's one reason there is no simple answer to the OP's question of whether any given device can take lithium AAs: a flash built in 1982 isn't going to tell you whether it can take a battery that landed on the market in 1992 (or whenever lithium AAs became common).

There appear to be different problems trying to use non-rechargeable Lithium-Ion batteries in older (largely before these batteries were available) photo gear -- flashes, battery packs, motor winders/drives, etc.

One is solved if the item itself or the user manual specifically says "DO NOT USE LITHIUM-ION BATTERIES" -- although they don't say, WHY.

The other is when the gear just won't operate using a Lithium-Ion battery. The use a different power source, for example Alkaline batteries.

The problem I'm wondering about is if Lithium-Ion batteries can actually damage some of this gear. I'm curious if anyone has an idea of how to address this. I have to assume the my BP-200 battery pack is stamped "DO NOT USE LITHIUM-ION BATTERIES" because of possible damage -- but older gear will not be stamped, and possibly damaged.

I'm inclined to stick to NON-LITHIUM-ION BATTERIES in older gear to avoid the risk.

Any ideas? Other solutions? Some of my old gear would be difficult to replace.