Lithium battery problems

[xkaes]

I've run across a couple of electronic flashes that would not work with lithium batteries, but work just fine with alkaline batteries. Don't know why, they just don't.

Now I've run across a battery pack that is imprinted "DO NOT USE LITHIUM BATTERIES" -- but works fine with alkaline.

What's going on? Is there any way to know ahead of time when NOT to use lithium batteries?

 

[citychicago]

Curious- Which flashes are you hoping to find out about?

 

[xkaes]

Curious- Which flashes are you hoping to find out about?

They weren't all my flashes. Other people had the same problem -- and thought it "curious". I have one flash that I can't use lithium in, but I forget which one it is. I think I might have been a Yashica. Definitely NOT NEW or CURRENT. All my most recent flashes work fine with LITHIUM -- but my BP-400 battery packs for the Minolta A-2 & A-1 all say "NO LITHIUJM". They are NOT what I would call OLD.

 

[ags2mikon]

The discharge current of lithium can be quite high do to the design of lithium batteries and may cause the wiring to experience over loading.

 

[pentaxuser]

The discharge current of lithium can be quite high do to the design of lithium batteries and may cause the wiring to experience over loading.

I can understand why based on your quote that lithium batteries may cause overloading but this wouldn't seem to explain why certain flashes do not work with lithium batteries, would it? Can you say why not all flashes are vulnerable and if the user risks switching on his flash with lithium batteries would he not see something happening such as at least one flash and then it wouldn't it be obviously that something had gone wrong?

I presume in all of this that if lithium batteries damage flashes then it cannot do this undetected. Finally what might be the difference with those flashes that are OK with lithium batteries or is it simply that all flashes are vulnerable to the use of lithium batteries?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[xkaes]

And I'm not just talking about electronic flashes. My Konica Minolta BP-400 battery pack for the A-1 & A-2 cameras is stamped "NO LITHIUM BATTERIES". I have a few of them and they all say the same thing.

 

[Dan Daniel]

Aren't lithium bateris at nominal 1.2 volts? And alkalines at nominal 1.5 volts? I don't know enough about flash circuitry to know if this explains anything.

 

[monopix]

The discharge current of lithium can be quite high do to the design of lithium batteries and may cause the wiring to experience over loading.

The discharge current is determined by the load, not the battery. If the voltage is the same, the current will be the same. Simple Ohm's law.

 

[xkaes]

NEW alkaline batteries usually measure at about 1.65v. When they are down to 1.5v that are close to dead. Lithiums usually start out at 1.75v.

Perhaps that 0.1v difference can cause problems for some gear.

 

[reddesert]

The discharge current is determined by the load, not the battery. If the voltage is the same, the current will be the same. Simple Ohm's law.

The internal resistance of a battery limits its discharge current. Different battery chemistries have different current delivery capacities. Lithium metal batteries can deliver a high current in a low-impedance application and that's why these warning labels exist. There is a possibility that the device and battery would overheat from large current (distinct from the smaller possibility that the device wouldn't work due to the different voltage). Devices such as flashes and motor drives that already draw a fairly large current are more likely to have issues.

 

[ic-racer]

There are many kinds of "Lithium" batteries with different voltages:

LiPo = 4.2
LiFe = 3.6, etc., etc....

 

[gone]

Did you check the battery voltage. On the small, rechargeable lithium batteries, they sometimes are a little less powerful than the battery that the camera or flash calls for.

A battery is a battery, no matter what type, but it pays to test the voltage just to be sure.

 

[wiltw]

There are not-rechargeable lithium batteries (really 'lithium iron disulfide' batteries) that have a long 10 year shelf life, and these are often used in emergency locating beacons used in aircraft or boats because they can remain in the unit and still operate dependably in Year 9...these can be found in AA form factor, for example. These also will operate even when extremely cold.

Then (different animal entirely) there are LITHIUM ION batteries, and these come in different output voltages as pointed out by ic-racer, and these ARE rechargeable and do not have long shelf life...they self discharge. Cold makes these not output at their rated voltage & current output.

So, OP, which type of Lithium battery were you considering?

In the Bronica medium format cameras, the SQ could NOT be used with the lithium button cells, but could work with alkaline or Silver Oxide...the current draw by the electronically timed shutter and AE prism was more than the lithium button cells could supply. Perhaps there is a similar limit...battery cannot supply the amperage needed by some flashes.

 

[xkaes]

Well this discussion has gotten as clear as mud.

 

[Leemet Samel]

Flashes can experience high currents during charging. I measured over 8A peak on my Canon 430EX III-RT with Eneloops. In the manual it is stated, that lithium batteries have the risk of overheating. Probably may happen if several consecutive full power flashes are used.

 

[koraks]

There are many kinds of "Lithium" batteries with different voltages:

LiPo = 4.2
LiFe = 3.6, etc., etc....

Indeed. And therefore to prevent this:

Well this discussion has gotten as clear as mud.

It would help to know which kinds of batteries @xkaes is comparing.

 

[Bushcat]

Lithium primary AA cells can typically sustain higher continuous discharge currents than the equivalent alkaline cells, around 2A. But at high load, they can heat up internally faster than they can radiate the heat, so a PTC is (or should be) part of the design: a positive thermal coefficient switch that triggers around 85C. I'd imagine this internal construction is the reason lithium cells aren't recommended: people would blame the flash rather than the battery. The switch resets as the cell cools down, so it would appear to be an intermittent failure of the device.

 

[xkaes]

It would help to know which kinds of batteries xkaes is comparing.

I'm using what I assume 90% of electronic flash users have -- AA non-rechargeable Lithium batteries. In my case ENERGIZER. They have a 20 year shelf life -- which means zilch if you can't use them!

That's what I use in all of my flashes and my Minolta Autowinders D & G, but my Minolta BP-400 says DON'T USE LITHIUM AA -- without getting more specific.

 

[monopix]

The internal resistance of a battery limits its discharge current. Different battery chemistries have different current delivery capacities. Lithium metal batteries can deliver a high current in a low-impedance application and that's why these warning labels exist. There is a possibility that the device and battery would overheat from large current (distinct from the smaller possibility that the device wouldn't work due to the different voltage). Devices such as flashes and motor drives that already draw a fairly large current are more likely to have issues.

Not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing or just adding some comment. But, yes, internal battery resistance will limit the current but that doesn't change the current drawn by a load. The lower internal resistance would make a minor increase in current drawn but the load resistance should not be anywhere near the internal resistance of the battery so the change would be minimal. If you're suggesting the circuit designer is relying on the battery internal resistance to limit the current, then that would be a very bad design.

 

[Dirb9]

I think that's what some of us assumed you were discussing, AA/AAA sized Lithium-Iron (LiFe) batteries (mostly sold under the Energizer brand), not the rechargeable Lithium-ion or Lithium-Polymer. I've assumed that note to not use lithium batteries has to do with the much higher open circuit voltage of LiFe batteries of about 1.8v, vs alkaline's voltage of about 1.5v. If the electronics weren't designed with the higher voltage in mind, then I suppose that something could be damaged or overloaded, 20% higher voltage is something that would have to be anticipated in the design of the device. A simple device, like a motordrive is unlikely to have more complicated circuity that could be damaged; the motor can handle a slightly higher voltage until a load is applied and the voltage drops to 'normal', LiFe batteries will drop in voltage to about 1.5v with a load of over 100mA. The voltage issue is also why sometimes there's a note not to use NiCd batteries, some (poorly designed) devices have a low voltage cutoff of 1.3-1.4v, which is above the voltage under load of a NiCd battery.

Not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing or just adding some comment. But, yes, internal battery resistance will limit the current but that doesn't change the current drawn by a load. The lower internal resistance would make a minor increase in current drawn but the load resistance should not be anywhere near the internal resistance of the battery so the change would be minimal. If you're suggesting the circuit designer is relying on the battery internal resistance to limit the current, then that would be a very bad design.

I've seen some high drain electronics, specifically flashes, call out not to use rechargeable batteries or lithium cells because they do in fact rely on the internal resistance to limit current, and the lower internal resistance of NiMh/LiFe cells can cause too high a current draw and overheat the batteries and the flash. Not great design, I agree.

 

[xkaes]

How does all this discussion help the average consumer who is just trying to figure out if a given lithium battery will work in a given piece of equipment -- or actually damage it?

 

[monopix]

I'm using what I assume 90% of electronic flash users have -- AA non-rechargeable Lithium batteries. In my case ENERGIZER. They have a 20 year shelf life -- which means zilch if you can't use them!

That's what I use in all of my flashes and my Minolta Autowinders D & G, but my Minolta BP-400 says DON'T USE LITHIUM AA -- without getting more specific.

There's no way of knowing by the BP400 says not to use lithiums unless you can find some info from the manufacturer. But with the flashes that don't work at all, checking the battery voltages on and off load would be a good place to start. Would also be useful to know exactly what happens when you use the lithiums. Does the flash start to charge but never reaches its maximum or is it completely dead? Dead could mean a bad connection due to a different design of the battery case or a dimensional difference. Not fully charging is more likely to be the battery type can't deliver the current or has a low on-load voltage.

 

[monopix]

How does all this discussion help the average consumer who is just trying to figure out if a given lithium battery will work in a given piece of equipment -- or actually damage it?

It doesn't. But it does show the complexity of the issue. Whether a given battery will work in a given instrument depends on the design of the instrument and whether it's designed to work with that battery and the variables include mechanical as well as electrical ones. There's no general rules you can apply that's going to answer your question.

 

[BrianShaw]

It doesn't. But it does show the complexity of the issue. Whether a given battery will work in a given instrument depends on the design of the instrument and whether it's designed to work with that battery and the variables include mechanical as well as electrical ones. There's no general rules you can apply that's going to answer your question.

Not intending to be rude and contradict, but there is one rule that might be useful: follow the manufacturer's recommendation.

 

[reddesert]

Not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing or just adding some comment. But, yes, internal battery resistance will limit the current but that doesn't change the current drawn by a load. The lower internal resistance would make a minor increase in current drawn but the load resistance should not be anywhere near the internal resistance of the battery so the change would be minimal. If you're suggesting the circuit designer is relying on the battery internal resistance to limit the current, then that would be a very bad design.

I read the original comment to say that battery properties shouldn't matter because the device limits the current drawn, and I don't think that's accurate for this particular lithium AA battery issue. There are other much more recent and sophisticated devices, with internal monitoring and current limiting, that have still managed to draw enough current from Li-ion batteries to heat or ignite the battery (some smartphones and laptops).

I agree that a design that draws enough current to be limited by the battery properties is not good, but I think many of the devices in question were designed before lithium AA batteries were commonly available, and the warning stickers are essentially a retrofit. That's one reason there is no simple answer to the OP's question of whether any given device can take lithium AAs: a flash built in 1982 isn't going to tell you whether it can take a battery that landed on the market in 1992 (or whenever lithium AAs became common).