Lith print paper status 2020?

[radiant]

I tried lith printing for the first time and found out that Fomabrom Variant 111 doesn't work with lith. I thought it should be OK for lith. I was using Moercsh Easy Lith and tried with 20+20 and 50+50 mixes. I tried an old Agfa gevart brovira BW 112 in the same mix and it worked fine.

But then I read somewhere that even Fomatone MG 131 have had problems with Lith because Foma changed something in the paper.

I was thinking of buying some new paper for lith process, so what it should be? Have you ordered / tested some papers lately? I'm not interested in overall experiences of papers but results with enough recent batch of paper..

Below is result of Fomabrom Variant 111 and Moersch EasyLith:

 

[radiant]

Small bump, if anyone has insight on this ..

 

[mooseontheloose]

Good question! I have a smallish(?) stock of around 20 boxes of old Foma papers - before the formulation change, as well as some other brands. However, since I have different projects in mind that I want to print in lith, I know I'll need to source more modern papers to do so. I know there are some work arounds for the snowballing effect of modern Foma papers (like pre-soaking the paper before it goes into the lith developer), but it would be nice to work with papers straight out of the box, either for first or second-pass lith. I know Ilford Warmtone papers can give a subtle lith effect that people enjoy, but I haven't experimented enough with it to determine if I really like it or not. Until recently I was using Fuji's Fujibro papers (only available in Japan, and have since been discontinued, although I can still find some in the shops) since they had a nice sandy tone that I liked. The paper was prone to pepper fogging by the 4th or 5th print though.

I had started to compile a list of possible modern papers to use for lith (and processes to use with them, since some work better in different developers/dilutions/temperatures/etc. than others) but my main computer died recently so I'm not sure if I had backed up the file or not. I'll take a look and see if I can find it. The Facebook group on lith printing is a good resource, but I'd like to create a website or wiki that people could contribute to so that all the information is in one place. Most of the lith information on the internet is quite old, and often repetitive, using examples of papers and developers that no longer exist.

Here's a photo I took back in March when I was re-organizing my darkroom and taking stock of everything I had in it. Most of these papers I've been saving for lith projects but I've been reluctant to start using any of them since they are such a finite resource!

 

[radiant]

I know there are some work arounds for the snowballing effect of modern Foma papers (like pre-soaking the paper before it goes into the lith developer)

Oh, I didn't know about this!

The Facebook group on lith printing is a good resource, but I'd like to create a website or wiki that people could contribute to so that all the information is in one place.

Man I hate facebook. It just sucks in all the knowledge nowadays. And to use the information you need to browse it multiple times a day. That is why I don't use facebook, it is impossible to find anything from there afterwards.

I can set up a wiki if there is need for that just to get people out of FB slavery If you know any other active contributors we could set up a domain for larger scope - maybe alternative processes? Wiki contents should probably be in https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/deed.en license so the content maintains its freedom.

 

[mooseontheloose]

I hate Facebook as well but joined a few years ago because it was the only way to communicate with other photographers in a photography project I was in. I still mostly use it for film and travel (not personal) stuff, but I hate the endless scrolling and the amount of time it takes to search through posts to find what you are looking for. I thought a wiki would be good so that people could contribute to it, otherwise, like so many other sites, the validity of the information depends on who is maintaining it. Of course, there might be other options out there.

 

[radiant]

BTW maybe I should have found this earlier: https://emulsive.org/articles/darkr...de-to-lith-printing#problem-8220snowballs8221

 

[koraks]

I've used Fomatone MG from after the supposed reformulation and found it worked perfectly fine for lith. In fact, it's the easiest/most 'lithable' paper out there.

 

[astoerkel]

Hi guys,

I sadly had the snowball effect today in my second print, the first one came out well. Both were on Foma 112 in Moersch Easylith. will try the H2O2 pre soak tomorrow.. also waiting for my Foma MG 132 to come

 

[koraks]

Neutral tone VC papers often lith very coarsely or not at all. I'm not surprised you ran into trouble with foma 112. You might get something usable by tweaking the processing parameters (exposure & developer additives & development time), but fomatone is just a whole lot easier to lith.

 

[radiant]

I asked Foma for their paper lith compability and I got response that FOMATONE MG Classic and new paper of RETROBROM should be OK. They even sent me samples - I haven't yet tested those.

I stashed a box full of old Agfa & other papers so I kinda sorted the Lith paper demand for years

 

[koraks]

Ah interesting, a new paper. Let's see how that pans out for them. I may get a box one of these days to see what it is.

 

[astoerkel]

Neutral tone VC papers often lith very coarsely or not at all. I'm not surprised you ran into trouble with foma 112. You might get something usable by tweaking the processing parameters (exposure & developer additives & development time), but fomatone is just a whole lot easier to lith.

Thanks! Waiting for my Fomatone to be delivered

 

[radiant]

Just an update to here as I finally got myself trying out Fomatone.

FOMA Fomatone MG 131 + Moersch Easy Lith works nicely. A bit orange color but acceptable and not too prominent. A bit snowballing appeared when I missed the snatch point.. So don't overdevelop (and you should..).

 

[pentaxuser]

Just out of curiosity but I take it that despite Ilford RC Deluxe being an improvement in several way over MGRCIV paper it still doesn't lith or not very well?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[radiant]

Just out of curiosity but I take it that despite Ilford RC Deluxe being an improvement in several way over MGRCIV paper it still doesn't lith or not very well?

I haven't tried but I assume that it doesn't. First of all I think lithable papers are all fiber based?

 

[rst]

I think there have been RC papers which lith too. My memory might glorify the past, but I think there was a Fomatone RC paper which did lith very well. So I would not just rule out RC papers.

One try for papers which do not lith well or do not lith at all is to over expose a bit and process in normal developer, fix and wash, then bleach, wash and redevelop in lith developer.

Cheers
Rüdiger

 

[Dali]

I haven't tried but I assume that it doesn't. First of all I think lithable papers are all fiber based?

You think wrong.

 

[radiant]

I think there have been RC papers which lith too. My memory might glorify the past, but I think there was a Fomatone RC paper which did lith very well. So I would not just rule out RC papers.

One try for papers which do not lith well or do not lith at all is to over expose a bit and process in normal developer, fix and wash, then bleach, wash and redevelop in lith developer.

Ok, good to know!

That redeveloping seems pretty interesting, I need to try that. Is there some particular bleach I should use?

 

[rst]

I think most of the bleaches will do. Goal is to get silver halides back. But the kind of bleach influences the colors you get in the final print. There is a book about lith printing by Tim Rudman. Actually there are two, but I remember that The Master Photographer‘s Lith Printing Course has a whole chapter about second pass lith with a lot of images demonstrating the effect. Tim Rudman also has a news letter where he publishes news about papers working for lith and more. Just look at his web page: http://www.timrudman.com

Cheers
Rüdiger

 

[radiant]

I think most of the bleaches will do. Goal is to get silver halides back. But the kind of bleach influences the colors you get in the final print. There is a book about lith printing by Tim Rudman. Actually there are two, but I remember that The Master Photographer‘s Lith Printing Course has a whole chapter about second pass lith with a lot of images demonstrating the effect. Tim Rudman also has a news letter where he publishes news about papers working for lith and more. Just look at his web page: http://www.timrudman.com

Thanks!

That book is pretty pricey If anyone has the book I would appreciate if you could check some pointers for the second pass lith?

 

[Urs Gantner]

@vedostuu take a look at the website of Wolfgang Moersch

https://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/knowhow

I don't know about your german skills (an easy one for me), but there is a lot of information - also about second pass lith and other techniques. At least one of the best resources if you're on a budget.

 

[rst]

@vedostuu And if you search for second pass lith print you will also get quite a bit of info. E.g. http://twelvesmallsquares.blogspot.com/2013/06/how-to-create-2nd-pass-lith-prints.html

And you are right, the book I mentioned is quite pricy, I am surprised. When I bought it in 2007 it was just 27€. What is called for it now is insane. I would contact sellers and see if they are able to lower the price. Sometimes it is better to sell something at a lower price instead of … not sell it.

Cheers
Rüdiger

 

[radiant]

@vedostuu take a look at the website of Wolfgang Moersch

https://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/knowhow

I don't know about your german skills (an easy one for me), but there is a lot of information - also about second pass lith and other techniques. At least one of the best resources if you're on a budget.

Thanks for the tip! To my luck the page translates into english by pressing the flag : https://www.moersch-photochemie.de/content/knowhow/lang:en

@vedostuu And if you search for second pass lith print you will also get quite a bit of info. E.g. http://twelvesmallsquares.blogspot.com/2013/06/how-to-create-2nd-pass-lith-prints.html

And you are right, the book I mentioned is quite pricy, I am surprised. When I bought it in 2007 it was just 27€. What is called for it now is insane. I would contact sellers and see if they are able to lower the price. Sometimes it is better to sell something at a lower price instead of … not sell it.

Cheers
Rüdiger

That is also good tip. I need to try and see what it looks like. (as I didn't have other projects to do in darkroom )

 

[mooseontheloose]

I haven't tried but I assume that it doesn't. First of all I think lithable papers are all fiber based?

Actually, quite a number of RC papers have been able to lith. It's just like everything else though - many people prefer fibre prints so don't bother exploring RC possibilities.

Here in Japan Fuji made a paper called Fujibro in two RC flavours - fixed grade and variable. For whatever reason, the fixed grade version liths, but the variable one does not. None of the fibre papers they used to make lithed either. I used to be like a lot of people in preferring fibre prints (for lith work especially) but got over that once I realised the Fujibro would lith - it was cheap and produced nice sandy colours. The only problem with it is it is extremely slow at normal developing temps (20C = 40-60 min) but speeds up considerably at higher temperatures (30-40C = 5 min). It also gets a lot of pepper grain after the third or fourth print. And in does not do second pass lith well at all - prints look muddier than the original.

As for Dr. Rudman's books - they are excellent, but if you can't find an affordable copy, I wouldn't worry about it too much. A lot of the information about second-pass lith (and other techniques) that are in his books are available online in many articles and blog posts (some feel no compunction to copy almost directly from him). Plus, many of the papers he refers to in his books are no longer available, so it makes more sense to see what people are doing now with available papers (the lith group on FB is a good place for that too).

Lith print on Fujibro (RC) paper:

 

[Urs Gantner]

Never heard about these Fuji RC paper - but i definitely like the colors in your paper....nice work!