Lith paper: Oriental VC FB or ?

Hi there,

I started lith printing a few weeks ago and I will need soon to buy some paper and those I used so far are no more on the market.

For my "traditional" prints, I use the Oriental VC FB paper. Do you think it would be OK for lith too? If not, what would you recommend?

Thanks!

(there was a url link here which no longer exists) that Polywarmtone may be in production again by Sept, but I'm not sure what his source is for that. I have not seen Adox comment to that effect, but they did say they (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

The old polywarmtone was lithable so the new one should be too

Wayne said:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists) that Polywarmtone may be in production again by Sept, but I'm not sure what his source is for that. I have not seen Adox comment to that effect, but they did say they (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

The old polywarmtone was lithable so the new one should be too

Click to expand...

I'm not sure why you think the new polywarmtone paper will lith? Agfa 111 & 118 lithed well, the new adox papers specifically stated at one point that they did not.

I think the best bet is to use old papers, and use them to the best that you can.

Marco Buonocore said:

I'm not sure why you think the new polywarmtone paper will lith? Agfa 111 & 118 lithed well, the new adox papers specifically stated at one point that they did not.

I think the best bet is to use old papers, and use them to the best that you can.

Click to expand...

Because the old polywarmtone lithed well, the new one should. If it doesn't lith, they will have failed in the whole point of the venture which was to recreate PWT. I think it very unlikely they will come up with a paper that is otherwise just like PWT that doesn't lith like PWT... if it doesn't lith well it probably won't be like PWT in other respects either. So i think it will lith well. But that's just my intuition talking, I'm no photo chemist

The current batches of Fomatone MG are fine for lith Printing. There were a couple of years when the Fomatone MG was not good for lith printing, due to gelatin changes. I'll try to find the batch numbers etc. and update this thread.

The standard Oriental VC FB paper is not very good for Lith printing. They made a warmtone version, which was just rebadged Fomatone... so depending on when it was made, it might be great

Ok, Fomatone MG information here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

There is also the Ilford warmtone paper, probably not a beginners paper, and one of the more expensive papers. Here is a video Tutorial from Bob Carnie (APUGer) on how to lith print Ilford Warmtone:

There's a good example of a lith print on Ilford WT in the gallery right now (by RubyMerz). That good be a good place to start for a paper that's readily available and liths (but check out Bob Carnie's recommendation on how to do it).

I still have boxes of older Foma (before the formulation change), but I like that paper for both regular printing and lith.

In my experience Oriental VC FB Warmtone liths about identically to Fomatone but it has to be the warm Oriental.

I love Oriental Warmtone for lith. AND I can get it from a supplier not too far away - that's important to me out here on the edge of the continent.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

trotkiller said:

The current batches of Fomatone MG are fine for lith Printing. There were a couple of years when the Fomatone MG was not good for lith printing, due to gelatin changes. I'll try to find the batch numbers etc. and update this thread.

The standard Oriental VC FB paper is not very good for Lith printing. They made a warmtone version, which was just rebadged Fomatone... so depending on when it was made, it might be great

Click to expand...

I did some tests last night with Oriental CV FB paper and the results were really awful: impossible to get a correct image unless you love abstraction.. The exact same negative gave a much better print with Varycon (no more available).

Just found out that Oriental Warmtone is now 3 times the price I last paid for it....... Sigh......

- Adox MCC & Adox MCP lith well with SE5 lith.
- Fomatone MG is highly praised pape for lith.

mooseontheloose said:

There's a good example of a lith print on Ilford WT in the gallery right now (by RubyMerz). That good be a good place to start for a paper that's readily available and liths (but check out Bob Carnie's recommendation on how to do it).

I still have boxes of older Foma (before the formulation change), but I like that paper for both regular printing and lith.

Click to expand...

Yes he does, several good examples. I'm particularly inspired by the Selenium toner on the violin.

trotkiller said:

The current batches of Fomatone MG are fine for lith Printing.

Click to expand...

How do you verify what batch a box is? When I called Freestyle, they said they don't have that information. I know it's been a while since Fomatone is supposedly lith-able again, but I don't want to drop $170 just to find out!

I ordered Fomatone from Freestyle a couple months ago in both 8x10 & 11x14 without asking about batch numbers. Both were clearly the new stuff so I think you should be fine.

I've had decent luck buying up old papers on eBay. I do fog tests, and even pretty badly fogged paper gives me bright whites and white borders with lith. Ektalure and MC-118 (which seems pretty common) and Brovira, other Kodak papers. Today on eBay are packs of Foma 123 for about $50, the seller has 2 or 3 of the lithable emulsions.

I've gotten some dogs (fogged pure black) but overall done pretty well and have a decent stock of interesting papers in 11x14 and 16x20.

Regarding Bob Carnie and MGWT - it's slightly different than normal lith printing, so study up. Also, I've had only 10% success with Arista liquid lith - I believe he uses LD-20, I plan to test it soon. My results have been bad mottled print, bad mottled print, very nice print, really terribly bad mottled print - the Arista changes too much throughout a print session. Bob told me via PM that he used very large quantities of dev to keep it fairly uniform. (I have to say, I was very pleased with that one good print).

Wayne said:

Because the old polywarmtone lithed well, the new one should. If it doesn't lith, they will have failed in the whole point of the venture which was to recreate PWT.

Click to expand...

Not necessarily, a lot of folks used the Polywarmtone were not even aware that it did "lith". Some folks used it for it's toning properties with conventional development.

And sadly it may be a case of a maker trying to recreate a paper and not quite hitting the mark on all criteria.

M Carter said:

I've had decent luck buying up old papers on eBay. ...

Also, I've had only 10% success with Arista liquid lith - I believe he uses LD-20, I plan to test it soon. My results have been bad mottled print, bad mottled print, very nice print, really terribly bad mottled print - the Arista changes too much throughout a print session. Bob told me via PM that he used very large quantities of dev to keep it fairly uniform. (I have to say, I was very pleased with that one good print).

Click to expand...

So far me too on the old paper.

Interesting your comment about Arista liquid lith. I was about to give up on it until my last session where I mixed it 1:12 w/~25% old brown, total of about 3 liters. I can't say results were "consistently good", but I had much better success than trying to run Arista at 1:20. So I thought I'd work with it some more before giving up. I've been thinking that larger volumes of working solution might work better given the larger amounts of concentrate, kind of like the 6ml limit on HC-110.

I am about to do some more Lith Printing this winter on various papers- I have a very nice project of musicians and actors that I think will work in this genre, the originals are from all sources and East Coast West Coast photographers.

Here is a brief outline how I want to work with this project-

I will be making enlarged negatives to a common Outside Dimension with the Inside Dimension falling in place. I think the film will be 16 x20 Ortho 25 fyi.
I will tailor make the negatives for each paper and each process in advance by doing 21 step wedge tests to customize each negative to paper.
I will use a simple contact setup like MAS uses with a vacuum easel and I will use regular bulb with filter capabilities and a secondary flash setup filter to flash the contrast control.


For each printing session I buy four kits of LD-20 from B&H or Argentix now that I know a Canadian company has stock.
As M Carter above mentions I will mix three units at a 1:10 mixture and since I do not have any old brown I will fog about 15 sheets of RC paper to white light and let them
sit in the Dev for a 1/2 to season the Developer , I will use the last box the second day at the same dilution and finish printing .
So two days , probably about 30 final prints if I am on a groove.

Since the negatives are all custom made I should have great success and not be chasing the bullet each time as they will all be in the same balance.

I will concentrate basically on two or three papers only , with Ilford Warmtone being one, but Art300 may trump. I am going to try some Berger papers and of course some
recommendations from some of you currently printing lith.

I have never been able to figure out why Ilford Warmtone plays out differently but for sure it explodes in the fix so the snatch point is a bit harder to calculate. Toning Ilford Warmtone
gives incredible colours IMO and I always will work with it in Lith printing.
The flash in my opinion is the most important element, as well lots of chemicals- With the flash contrast is tamed and can allow us to make negatives with dead blacks and snatch for the blacks
the Flash will add tone in your highlights.
IMO the very best printer of lith is Mike Spry of UK Star Trax is an example of incredible lith prints. Mike used Oriental G4 with Nova Lith (both not available)
(The photographer would rate trix at 1600 and process 12 min in HC110 dilution B which gave Mike an incredible negative to work from. ) I am repeating the recipe as I have heard it over the years, I do not
have definitive proof so don't sue me if he was doing it different.

I try to emulate this type of negative which has a thin overall appearance with deep highlights (which are tamed with the flash)

I love hearing about your process Bob - wish I had those capabilities in my tiny darkroom.

I have a copy of Star Trax and I agree, it's a fantastic example of really great lith printing.

mooseontheloose said:

I love hearing about your process Bob - wish I had those capabilities in my tiny darkroom.

I have a copy of Star Trax and I agree, it's a fantastic example of really great lith printing.

Click to expand...

I'm having trouble finding any reference to this book. There is an author living in Canada but his website says nothing about publishing a book on lith printing. I have an interlibrary loan request into my university but I'm not hopeful. I would like to see this book, any suggestions?

Thanks.

google anton corbijin

Bob Carnie said:

google anton corbijin

Click to expand...

Or even better, "Anton Corbijn"

MattKing said:

Or even better, "Anton Corbijn"

Click to expand...

I never get his name right - thanks

And the book is called Star Trak (not Trax). There's a picture of Clint Eastwood on the cover.