Liquid XTOL

[alanrockwood]

OK, I know it doesn't exist, but I wish there were a liquid equivalent to XTOL that had a long shelf life and could be mixed as needed for one shot development, preferably a product that would come from a single-solution bottle.

 

[chriscrawfordphoto]

Tmax Developer is what I usually recommend to people who want a good one-shot liquid that has a very long shelf life. It gives full speed on most films, good tonality, good grain and sharpness. It is the best pushing developer I have tried, if you ever push films or shoot with Ilford Delta 3200.

 

[Rudeofus]

If you are ready for a bit of self mixing, Mark Overton has extensively reported about his (there was a url link here which no longer exists) which is similar in composition to Xtol and produces comparable results. A 200 g/l solution of Sodium Sulfite in water is also quite stable if you keep it in an air tight bottle, so you can mix Xtol like developer working solution from two liquid concentrates.

 

[alanrockwood]

Mocon looks interesting.

 

[grommi]

Even if you use Kodak Xtol stock as a one-shot developer, developing a single 35mm film coasts about 25 Cent. So there is already a one-shot Xtol.

I'm using instant Mytol double strength exclusively one-shot, coast is near to nothing:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The problem with most substitutes is that they do not contain a chelating agent for iron and copper and are thus subject to sudden failure. The following formula contains two chelating agents triethanolamine and salicylic acid.


DS-10

Distilled water (50°C) …………………………………………… 750 ml
Sodium sulfite (anhy) ……………………………………………… 75.0 g
Triethanolamine¡ …………………………………………………………… 10.0 ml
Ascorbic acid …………………………………………………………………… 8.0 g
Dimezone S …………………………………………………………………………… 0.15 g
Salicylic acid ………………………………………………………………… 1.0 g
Boric acid …………………………………………………………………………… 4.0 g
Distilled water to make ………………………………………… 1.0 l

 

[RattyMouse]

The problem with most substitutes is that they do not contain a chelating agent for iron and copper and are thus subject to sudden failure. The following formula contains two chelating agents triethanolamine and salicylic acid.


DS-10

Distilled water (50°C) …………………………………………… 750 ml
Sodium sulfite (anhy) ……………………………………………… 75.0 g
Triethanolamine¡ …………………………………………………………… 10.0 ml
Ascorbic acid …………………………………………………………………… 8.0 g
Dimezone S …………………………………………………………………………… 0.15 g
Salicylic acid ………………………………………………………………… 1.0 g
Boric acid …………………………………………………………………………… 4.0 g
Distilled water to make ………………………………………… 1.0 l

What evidence indicates that triethanolamine is a chelator? It has never acted as such, particularly against iron, in any formula I have ever developed.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

What evidence indicates that triethanolamine is a chelator? It has never acted as such, particularly against iron, in any formula I have ever developed.

The triethanolamine chelates for copper, the salicylic acid for iron. This formula and 3 others were developed by Ryuji Suzuki who spent many months researching the Fenton reaction. The two ions mentioned cause very rapid decomposition of ascorbate ion. Iron is a common contaminant of several chemicals used in photography. Therefore, the use of distilled water has little effect in preventing the problem. Both the triethanolamine and the salicylic acid are also part of the buffering system of the developer and cannot be omitted without further changes. While some ascorbate developers are simple variants of D-76 merely making direct substitution for the hydroquine, the above formula uses the correct ratio for the two developing agents.

BTW, the fact that these two chemicals chelate for certain for certain ions can be seen from the appropriate stability constants. You can also gauge the relative effectiveness of several chelators by looking at the stability constants. Kodak uses DTPA in Xtol but that is hard to obtain for the average person.

 

[grommi]

Gerald, your knowledge and experiance is always welcome. Unfortunately many raw chemicals (not only DTPA) are increasingly difficult or impossible to get, e.g. Triethanolamine, Dimezone S or Boric acid, or ridiculously expensive in useful quantities. I've seen the recipe you posted above before, but many of us - including me - can't make it ourselves. So we have to buy the ready made product - Xtol in this case - or use simpler recipes. That's why I posted the link to the instant Mytol. I also use low grade chemicals, e.g. "bubble ex" sodium sulfite and had no problems with the developer in use since 12 months. The double strenght stock dilution I made even had a light yellow color at last but still worked fine. I guess storing the developer in small glass bottles helps a lot to keep it working.

 

[RattyMouse]

The triethanolamine chelates for copper, the salicylic acid for iron. This formula and 3 others were developed by Ryuji Suzuki who spent many months researching the Fenton reaction. The two ions mentioned cause very rapid decomposition of ascorbate ion. Iron is a common contaminant of several chemicals used in photography. Therefore, the use of distilled water has little effect in preventing the problem. Both the triethanolamine and the salicylic acid are also part of the buffering system of the developer and cannot be omitted without further changes. While some ascorbate developers are simple variants of D-76 merely making direct substitution for the hydroquine, the above formula uses the correct ratio for the two developing agents.

BTW, the fact that these two chemicals chelate for certain for certain ions can be seen from the appropriate stability constants. You can also gauge the relative effectiveness of several chelators by looking at the stability constants. Kodak uses DTPA in Xtol but that is hard to obtain for the average person.

The preservative Sodium Omadine turns a purple color in the presence of iron. Formulations with 10% or more TEA turn purple with even a trace amount of iron contamination. 0.2% EDTA prevents this color change from occurring. I wonder why TEA shows no chelating power in my experience.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The preservative Sodium Omadine turns a purple color in the presence of iron. Formulations with 10% or more TEA turn purple with even a trace amount of iron contamination. 0.2% EDTA prevents this color change from occurring. I wonder why TEA shows no chelating power in my experience.

As I stated the TEA is to complex copper ion and NOT iron. Chelating agents are often very specific as to what ions they will reactive with. EDTA should not be used as it actually speeds up the Fenton oxidation. This is true of many other chelating agents making it difficult to find one that does not.

Iron forms chelates with many agents only a few of which are purple in color. For example the complex with the ammonium ion is either bluish-green or tan. That with the cyanide ion is orange and with the hydroxyl ion brown to red. Interestingly ferric nitrate is colorless because the nitrate ion does not form complexes.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Gerald, your knowledge and experiance is always welcome. Unfortunately many raw chemicals (not only DTPA) are increasingly difficult or impossible to get, e.g. Triethanolamine, Dimezone S or Boric acid, or ridiculously expensive in useful quantities. I've seen the recipe you posted above before, but many of us - including me - can't make it ourselves. So we have to buy the ready made product - Xtol in this case - or use simpler recipes. That's why I posted the link to the instant Mytol. I also use low grade chemicals, e.g. "bubble ex" sodium sulfite and had no problems with the developer in use since 12 months. The double strenght stock dilution I made even had a light yellow color at last but still worked fine. I guess storing the developer in small glass bottles helps a lot to keep it working.

If you can obtain the chemicals for this or any other formula that I post I would recommend it over other variations. I have had developers like Mytol go bad overnight. So you have been rather lucky. Fentol oxidation is different from aerial oxidation and putting the developer in small bottles would have no effect against anything other than aerial oxidation.

I don't wish to offend anyone but I have to say that here in the US we are reminded periodically what it was like being ruled from London. I doubt we would take kindly to any foreign capitol doing so now.

 

[Sirius Glass]

OK, I know it doesn't exist, but I wish there were a liquid equivalent to XTOL that had a long shelf life and could be mixed as needed for one shot development, preferably a product that would come from a single-solution bottle.

Use XTOL in the replenished method and you will get the sharpness and great tonality that you are merely try to get with a one-shot developer. Plus replenished XTOL lasts like forever.

 

[albada]

If you are ready for a bit of self mixing, Mark Overton has extensively reported about his (there was a url link here which no longer exists) which is similar in composition to Xtol and produces comparable results. A 200 g/l solution of Sodium Sulfite in water is also quite stable if you keep it in an air tight bottle, so you can mix Xtol like developer working solution from two liquid concentrates.

I invented Mocon.
It keeps for years in the freezer.
Using it is easy: Just measure out some Mocon liquid and sodium sulfite, and add water. It's only used one-shot.

The problem is that creating the concentrate requires that you obtain the four chemicals, heat the propylene glycol to 70 C in a glass lab beaker, and measure and mix the remaining three chemicals. This is too much hassle for most folks.

Mark Overton

 

[polyglot]

If you're not up for making Mocon, DD-X is kind of similar and is a liquid. I would expect Xtol to outlive it though, especially since you can store it basically forever as powder.

 

[RattyMouse]

If you're not up for making Mocon, DD-X is kind of similar and is a liquid. I would expect Xtol to outlive it though, especially since you can store it basically forever as powder.

Why does DD-X cost so much more than XTOL? Are they really that similar?

 

[pentaxuser]

Why does DD-X cost so much more than XTOL? Are they really that similar?

It is a good question and has been asked several times on APUG but I have yet to see a good answer. Even if you compare it on a like for like basis. 5L of Xtol in the U.K. is about half the price of 5L of DDX on a 1+4 working solution basis.

I presume that even in the U.S. there is quite a difference in price, given that it is usually a U.S. APUGer that raises the price of DDX issue.

What's the difference in China? Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[grommi]

sorry, wrong post

 

[chriscrawfordphoto]

It is a good question and has been asked several times on APUG but I have yet to see a good answer. Even if you compare it on a like for like basis. 5L of Xtol in the U.K. is about half the price of 5L of DDX on a 1+4 working solution basis.

I presume that even in the U.S. there is quite a difference in price, given that it is usually a U.S. APUGer that raises the price of DDX issue.

What's the difference in China? Thanks

pentaxuser

DD-X is sold as a liquid, and Xtol is a powder. Powder developers are almost always cheaper than liquids because of the high cost of the plastic bottles liquids are packaged in, and the cost of shipping bulky, heavy bottles of liquids from manufacturer to distributor to stores.

 

[RattyMouse]

It is a good question and has been asked several times on APUG but I have yet to see a good answer. Even if you compare it on a like for like basis. 5L of Xtol in the U.K. is about half the price of 5L of DDX on a 1+4 working solution basis.

I presume that even in the U.S. there is quite a difference in price, given that it is usually a U.S. APUGer that raises the price of DDX issue.

What's the difference in China? Thanks

pentaxuser

I pay around $40 for a bottle of DD-X.

A package of XTOL runs about $15.

A 1 gallon package of D-76 costs $12.

 

[RattyMouse]

DD-X is sold as a liquid, and Xtol is a powder. Powder developers are almost always cheaper than liquids because of the high cost of the plastic bottles liquids are packaged in, and the cost of shipping bulky, heavy bottles of liquids from manufacturer to distributor to stores.

In that case, why is Ilford Rapid Fixer so cheap then? It's in the same container as DD-X, is a liquid, and costs no where near as much as the Ilford developer. I think I paid $15 for my bottle of Rapid Fixer. I'm not sure as I havent bought one in many months.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

In that case, why is Ilford Rapid Fixer so cheap then? It's in the same container as DD-X, is a liquid, and costs no where near as much as the Ilford developer. I think I paid $15 for my bottle of Rapid Fixer. I'm not sure as I havent bought one in many months.

Interesting,as the cost of fixer was the reason I started making my own processing chemicals from bulk.I enjoyed it so much that I now make them all myself;very satisfying to be able to do that.

 

[john_s]

In that case, why is Ilford Rapid Fixer so cheap then? It's in the same container as DD-X, is a liquid, and costs no where near as much as the Ilford developer. I think I paid $15 for my bottle of Rapid Fixer. I'm not sure as I havent bought one in many months.

It's about marketing and the existence of convenient alternatives. Here in Australia bottles of European mineral water costs somewhat more than local mineral water, but not incredibly so, so the cost of transport can't be huge.