Liquid developer approximating XTOL?

[alanrockwood]

Is there a liquid developer that approximates the properties of XTOL?

 

[MattKing]

Which properties?
T-Max RS offers easy self-replenishment and full speed.
But it certainly isn't as economical as X-Tol, and probably isn't as environmentally "benign".

 

[jim appleyard]

I don't know any and a brief search turned up no matches , at least as chemical composition is concerned. There are several liquid devs that you could use (different chemistry than X-Tol) or you could mix your own Mytol and E-76 from Darkroom Cookbook.

 

[chip j]

FOMA W27

 

[jim appleyard]

FOMA W27

Yes, an ascorbic acid dev, but in powder form, not liquid.

 

[howardpan]

I noticed Ilford lists Ilfosol 3 (LC) as its Xtol equivalent (https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/ILFORD-PHOTO-to-Kodak-equivalents.pdf) and Foma lists Fomadon Excel as its Xtol equivalent (http://www.foma.cz/en/kodak-foma). I presume they mean these developers will achieve similar effects rather than share the same chemical composition. I also don’t have any personal experience with these developers. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has investigated.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

Have u looked at this?

https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/mocon-xtol-quality-in-a-long-lasting-concentrate.219/

 

[Oren Grad]

I noticed Ilford lists Ilfosol 3 (LC) as its Xtol equivalent (https://www.ilfordphoto.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/ILFORD-PHOTO-to-Kodak-equivalents.pdf)...

In my experience Ilfosol 3 bears not the faintest resemblance to Xtol, other than also being a film developer. I am baffled as to how Harman could flag it as an "equivalent".

Afraid I haven't tried Fomadon Excel, so I can't comment on that.

 

[alanrockwood]

Have u looked at this?

https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/mocon-xtol-quality-in-a-long-lasting-concentrate.219/

Excellent information. Thanks.

The comment about metaborate probably forming an ester with propylene glycol is very interesting. It reminds me of boronate affinity chromatography which is used for hemoglobin A1c analysis. In that case the boronate group reacts with a compound that has two OH groups next to each other. Since glycols have two OH groups next to each other they probably undergo the same reaction. Ascorbic acid also has two OH groups next to each other, so it probably reacts the same way. All of this is consistent with what is written in the link posted by Raghu Kuvempunagar.

 

[Alan Johnson]

You could make a liquid concentrate in water using potassium sulfite which is much more soluble than sodium sulfite but is generally only sold in industrial quantities as a concentrate so it is not very practical for the home brewer.Also DTPA may be hard to find.. The strength would be limited by the solubility of one of the other components, dimezone-s, ascorbate, borates etc.

 

[Raghu Kuvempunagar]

You might also be interested in another approximation of XTol:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/pc-tea-vs-mytol-for-hp5-tri-x-in-135-120-format.25721/page-2
See post #40 by Jordan.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/pc-tea-sulfite.22102/
See post #5 by Jordan.

 

[jim appleyard]

If it's the Vitamin C/sod. ascorbate part you're after, see this article:

https://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/VitC/vitc.html

Or this article:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/pc-tea-the-new-frontier.5790/


You'll have to mix up both from dry chemicals.

 

[GLS]

Excellent information. Thanks.

The comment about metaborate probably forming an ester with propylene glycol is very interesting. It reminds me of boronate affinity chromatography which is used for hemoglobin A1c analysis. In that case the boronate group reacts with a compound that has two OH groups next to each other. Since glycols have two OH groups next to each other they probably undergo the same reaction. Ascorbic acid also has two OH groups next to each other, so it probably reacts the same way. All of this is consistent with what is written in the link posted by Raghu Kuvempunagar.

Yes boronic acids/borates very readily form boronate esters, especially if the alcoholic groups come from the same molecule, as then the ester formation is favoured kinetically as well as entropically. Boronic acids can form cyclic anhydrides (boroxines) in the same manner with heating and desiccation/vacuum treatment.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Just wondering why?

 

[GLS]

Just wondering why?

Why boronate esters readily form, you mean? The principal reason is because they are more stable compounds than the parent boronic acids/borates. Boron most commonly forms trivalent compounds (as with the species under discussion here). Without getting really technical, the type of bonding involved in these compounds is stabilised by groups which donate electron density to the boron, and the alkoxide (or similar) parts of boronate esters do this better than the OH or O in boronic acids/borates.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Just wondering why?

Why boronate esters readily form, you mean? The principal reason is because they are more stable compounds than the parent boronic acids/borates. Boron most commonly forms trivalent compounds (as with the species under discussion here). Without getting really technical, the type of bonding involved in these compounds is stabilised by groups which donate electron density to the boron, and the alkoxide (or similar) parts of boronate esters do this better than the OH or O in boronic acids/borates.

That is not exactly what I meant. Restated: Given the low cost of XTOL, why is there interest in reproducing it or is there a driving reason to produce a variant?

 

[GLS]

Ah, apologies. I thought you were replying to me.

As to the reasons behind the OP, I assume the main concern is finding a close alternative that is supplied as a liquid rather than a powder.

 

[albada]

Excellent information. Thanks. The comment about metaborate probably forming an ester with propylene glycol is very interesting. It reminds me of boronate affinity chromatography which is used for hemoglobin A1c analysis. In that case the boronate group reacts with a compound that has two OH groups next to each other. Since glycols have two OH groups next to each other they probably undergo the same reaction. Ascorbic acid also has two OH groups next to each other, so it probably reacts the same way. All of this is consistent with what is written in the link posted by Raghu Kuvempunagar.

I am the inventor of Mocon referenced in that link. I did not post about it in this thread because the user must mix the sulfite separately from the liquid, making Mocon a two-part (NOT two-bath) developer. The OP wanted a liquid, not a powder.
Anyway, a bottle of Mocon has been in my freezer for five years, with no sign of degradation. That is, it has not yellowed and it still works fine.

Mark Overton

 

[Paul Howell]

Does OP want a liquid with similar chemistry as Extol or a liquid that gives similar speed and contrast? I recall that Kodak made HC 110 as an alternative to D76, not in the same family chemically but similar working characteristics as D 76.

 

[alanrockwood]

Does OP want a liquid with similar chemistry as Extol or a liquid that gives similar speed and contrast? I recall that Kodak made HC 110 as an alternative to D76, not in the same family chemically but similar working characteristics as D 76.

Looking for a liquid with similar properties as a developer, mainly the favorable combination of effective film speed, grain, and sharpness that Xtol is known for. Also, convenience (because it would be a liquid, so working solution could be made in small batches) and keeping properties similar to liquid developers, like Tmax developer, HC-110, and Rodinal. Also, economy. (I'm not asking for much here am I?)

Tmax developer gets part way there, except that it tends to make grainy negatives and is not particularly economical to use.

 

[MattKing]

Tmax developer gets part way there, except that it tends to make grainy negatives and is not particularly economical to use.

Have you tried T-Max RS in a replenishment regime?

 

[Photo Engineer]

Just FYI, Kodak experimented with tablet and "gum" developers like Xtol that were supposed to work "better" but AFAIK, nothing ever came of it. Ascorbic acid is hard to handle. Other formulas did work.

PE

 

[alanrockwood]

Have you tried T-Max RS in a replenishment regime?

I have not tried T-Max RS in replenishment regime. I probably don't develop film frequently enough to make replenishment practical, so I have never seriously considered that option.

 

[OzJohn]

What was so wonderful about XTol? I'm a life-long D76 user and bought XTol just once to try it as I did with Ilfosol. I found both to be serviceable developers but nothing to get excited about. Ilfosol was grossly overpriced IMO, not so XTol.

 

[Rudeofus]

I wonder whether the whole contents of a package of XTol could be dissolved in substantially less than the recommended five liters of water.