Lifting emulsion on commercial film

[Xylo]

Hi!
I'm looking for some some recipe to help two friends solve a weird issue.
Both of them have some film where the emulsion lifts completely off the base in 70°F developer.
In one case, it's a series of rolls of older Adox CHS Art film, in the other it's some old Svema film.

Now I first thought of using a tropical developer, but mixing from scratch is not an option.
I also thought of using a pre-hardening bath like what was used on older dry plates, but I'm looking for something simple and safe.

So... anybody got any idea on how to prevent the emulsion from lifting?

Thanks

 

[Lachlan Young]

A hardening stop or fix is probably what you want - and minimise temperature shifts across the process - ideally hold it at 68F/ 20C. And avoid developers with carbonate in them. Those are usually the best ways to handle much less well hardened materials.

 

[Xylo]

The big problem is that the developer comes out of the tank completely black. And all you're left with is a length of clear emulsion at the end.
If the emulsion lifted after the stop or the fix, I would have come-up with a simple solution as hardening stops and fixers are fairly common.

This problem is really puzzling at 70°C is not what I would call excessively hot. But still, for some reason it's a problem with those batches of film.

 

[pentaxuser]

There has to be something else at work here surely? A total lift-off of emulsion at 70F cannot be how the film was manufactured to behave. Most if not all b&w films are designed to develop at 68/70F

Not wishing to doubt Lachlan's suggestion but I'd be amazed if developing it at 2 degrees Fahrenheit less is the solution. However I cannot offer any other solution except to say that most developers will still work at 65F so you then have 5 F as a safety margin

pentaxuser

 

[Xylo]

What is there in regular tropical developers that actually makes them suitable for high temperature use?
Maybe adding the same chemicals to run of the mill D76 or something would make the emulsion stick more?
Or maybe I'm going the wrong route entirely on this one?

 

[MattKing]

What format/size of film is it?
Is there any chance the contents of the roll is different from what the label says (e.g. reused 35mm cassettes)?

 

[Xylo]

They're both 35mm in regular production cassettes like they came from the factory. No respooling or anything.

 

[MattKing]

They're both 35mm in regular production cassettes like they came from the factory. No respooling or anything.

But did someone else put something different into those cassettes before they got to your friends?

 

[Xylo]

I know the ADOX was bought from a reputable store.
As for the Svema, it's so old it's got to be a one of those mysterious stored in the desert roll that made it's way from the old USSR to the west by a horse rider who crossed the mountains where the pack of film was dropped only to be found later by a sheep herder who didn't have a camera and gave it as a trade-in to an innkeeper who gave it to his son who brought it to Paris... and it eventually made it's way to New York where my friend tried to develop it and got a whole roll of blanks without even an edge marking. It's probably got that kind of provenance so anything goes. But the rolls he got do appear to be original.

 

[Lachlan Young]

What is there in regular tropical developers that actually makes them suitable for high temperature use?
Maybe adding the same chemicals to run of the mill D76 or something would make the emulsion stick more?
Or maybe I'm going the wrong route entirely on this one?

They tend to have Sodium Sulfate in them to prevent swell. I'd start by investigating all possible sources of problems - starting from what developer you are using, double checking against another themometer etc. Are you quite sure that the emulsion is coming off in the developer and that it isn't residual dye? From my recollection of Efke, the dyes made the developer go quite dark when poured out. You'd also get quite a lot of gelatinous goo (believe you me, you'll notice this) if the emulsion was really coming off - have you strained any of your solutions to see if there's significant residue?

 

[Xylo]

I know, especially on the Svema, he does get a lot of black goo on the first go.
If it wasn't a B&W film, I'd call it remjet.
He says he had the feeling that all his pictures were going down the drain... and it appears it was the case.

 

[MattKing]

If it wasn't a B&W film, I'd call it remjet.

Some motion picture black and white films do have remjet.

 

[Lachlan Young]

I know, especially on the Svema, he does get a lot of black goo on the first go.
If it wasn't a B&W film, I'd call it remjet.
He says he had the feeling that all his pictures were going down the drain... and it appears it was the case.

Have you done a clip test of a sample piece of the films in room light to see if the emulsion really is coming off in the developer? What developer are you using?

 

[Don_ih]

I hate to ask - but are you sure the developer isn't at 70 degrees Celsius? Like quite warm coffee temperature? 70 degrees F should feel cold to your hand.

 

[Xylo]

The guy is pretty well versed in all things science (he's got a masters in microbiology), so temperatures are respected.
But I'll ask him to clip a piece of leader to see what's actually going on. That's a really good idea.
I'll ask him a few more questions and will pop back here when I get the answers as I'm just as curious as you are about this strange issue.

 

[foc]

As for the Svema, it's so old it's got to be a one of those mysterious stored in the desert roll that made it's way from the old USSR to the west by a horse rider who crossed the mountains where the pack of film was dropped only to be found later by a sheep herder who didn't have a camera and gave it as a trade-in to an innkeeper who gave it to his son who brought it to Paris... and it eventually made it's way to New York where my friend tried to develop it and got a whole roll of blanks without even an edge marking. It's probably got that kind of provenance so anything goes. But the rolls he got do appear to be original.

Sounds like a very interesting adventure.
Just to be sure, the Svema is black & white film?
Can you post a photo of the box or film cassette, please?

 

[Xylo]

OK, I finally got some more info on this.
Since my friend is mostly a 35mm B&W photographer, I assumed the film was just that. But it's some rolls of 120 color film. When he processed them in C-41, he got blanks. Then he tried processing in 70°F B&W chemistry (he figured that if the emulsion didn't support the temperatures of color chemistry, it should at least give something in B&W) and the same thing happened.
He's coming to the conclusion that the film can't stand water (maybe he should process in vodka as it would make the film feel more at home? ), but that makes no sense.
Here are a few pictures of the boxes.

 

[Don_ih]

My guess: it was blank because it was not exposed enough. That being iso100 film, it should not have slowed enough to get no image exposed at iso100. Maybe it would fare better at iso80 or 50 - but it should not be blank. Perhaps his camera is actually at fault.

 

[Xylo]

How does that explain the black goo that comes out with the developer?
I don't believe he's ever used a roll of fresh film in his life, so he definitely knows about the +1 stop per decade "rule".

 

[mshchem]

I bet on remjet. If it's gelatin emulsion it's unlikely to do anything at room temp. If you can find a bit of unprocessed Kodachrome, you can have the remjet experience.

If you have ever made Jell-O, you need pretty hot water to dissolve gelatin. I would save the boxes and get some good Rochester made, fresh film, enjoy every miraculous frame.

 

[foc]

My understanding is that the Colour film was similar to the old Agfa CNS process so the developing temperature would have been 20C.
As you say developing in C41 would have to be at 20C otherwise the emulsion justs melts off.
Maybe with the age of the film, no matter what you do the emulsion melts off and that is the black goo you are getting.
Out of interest, when the colour film was developed in C41 was the film base orange?
When the film was developed in B&W was the film base dark and orange looking?

 

[Lachlan Young]

How does that explain the black goo that comes out with the developer?
I don't believe he's ever used a roll of fresh film in his life, so he definitely knows about the +1 stop per decade "rule".

Anything over 20oC will begin to soften the gelatin on that Svema film (and most of the old Agfa/ Fischer coupler type emulsions that are barely hardened) - It'll definitely run to one extent or another in C-41 at 20oC or a little below (18oC) without taking the emulsion off, which makes me very suspicious of other parts of the process being used. Temperatures that are off by a significant degree (always double check and verify with a second thermometer at least, or better still, to a calibrated reference thermometer) or a very high pH may be contributing to significant emulsion softening.

@foc I think Svema DS4 is maskless, but not sure about CNL 90 (which is more than likely long exposure corrected and tungsten balanced) - I encountered some within the last decade, but it was quite unmemorable as to the base colour.

 

[Xylo]

I never thought it could be anything other than a C-41, E-6 or ECN-2 process. He says that the film was dated 1996, so I wonder if the old Agfacolor process was still in use in Russia at that time... that it would be much older than that would make sense as he says it's hard to read the date on it.
I asked him to find a country of manufacture on the box. If it says CCCP, I know it's before 1989, it's Soviet and if it's after, it's Russian. That could say a lot in terms of quality control.

 

[Don_ih]

When you look up the CNL film, you find an ebay listing where the seller says it has to be developed cool, has to be overexposed, you should add this and that and something else to the developer to get it to do something. Other results say the emulsion falls off at anything above 18 degrees.

My new bet is, there would have been results developing as b&w if the developer had been cooler. Colour sounds like a crap shoot.

 

[Xylo]

Yeah, I was really wondering how the heck he could develop the old Agfacolor process.
Room temp C-41 ?
B&W processing with an ice bath?

This is really beyond my usual area of expertise.