Liberation from the light meter can be mentally productive

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its much easier to take the little paper that came with the film
or look in the film box ... see if it it is cloudy, partly cloudy
sunny, or whatever and do what the box says ...
i am always amazed at how complicated people make things ...

but then again YMMV
 
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David Lyga

David Lyga

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First, don't accuse me of being something I am not. I am NOT a CPA because, unlike for lawyers, passing the Exam in not sufficient. You have to work for a CPA for two years. I have not! (Who wants someone that is 62 even if he feels that he will live for another 40 years?)

Now, all of you have provided sensible input. I will admit that having a light meter present is one of the most comfortable things on earth to have. To add to this, Diapositivo stresses that the eye is adaptable and I certainly agree. In fact, my point was to challenge that (in ths case) 'negative adaptablility' with reason and experience. Many of you say or infer that low light, especially, is 'hard' to determine. This is entirely true and a valid assessment.

My 'system' is, in fact, the extant EV system simply expressed my way. Long ago I memorized the simple numerical equivalences of aperture and shutter speeds. Thus, it becomes easier for me to think of 1/500 as simply '9' and an aperture of f8 as '6' rather than with employing the more cumbersome standard way. In fact, my cameras and lenses are marked that way with neat stickers. If I know that a scene demands '11' for exposure, judging by the film used and the light available, I can provide a multitude of exposures varying the shutter and aperture, so long as the total is '11'. That, I feel, is easier than reading an instruction sheet that limits to discrete examples (ie, f5.6 with 1/60). This is all based upon the brain challenging the 'adaptability' of the eye. Of course most of you will assess an ISO 100 film to be a sunny rule '15'. My assessment at '14' is simply my way of imparting more shadow detail onto the film at the tiny expense of SLIGHTLY reducing highlight separation.

This is different than using a meter, of course, but even while using a meter we can utilize the EV system. I love this system because it reduces the dilemma of proper exposure to a simple whole number (or, possibly, if you are fussy, a whole number with at fraction, like 10 1/2).

Chan Tran wrote: "The second part you assign a light value to a condition for example full sun EV15 etc.. This part replaces the meter but one can elect to use this or not. One can use a meter to get the EV reading off the meter. However, I am like Cliveh that when I look at the scene I tend to intutively thought of an exposure in term or shutter speed and aperture combination rather than an ev number. And thus may need to those back to EV number mentally if I need to."

Yes, Chan Tran, assigning a light value to a light CONDITION is what my post is all about. Most of us already know that the EV system exists. Hassleblad used to use just that system and so did, I think, Rollei. What I am driving at here is in attaining the ability to discern light value DESPITE the fact that (Diapositivo) the "eye is adaptable". Surmounting this obstacle becomes, I stress, a real mental achievement, even though with readily available light meters the 'value' of this achievement is (properly) challenged on this thread. To derive this achievement (I am still learning) you have to employ insight, pragmatism, and also, sometimes a practical judgment of the surroundings.

This vociferous challenging of the value of this 'achievement' is understandable in the same way that an escalator is deemed an 'improvement' (where in many aspects it is NOT, with regards to human health). I am forcing all of you to dissect the real meaning and impetus of 'improvement' here and I think that that is a worthwhile 'cause'. In essence, what I say is that there is a certain comfort in knowing light and not being wholly and persistently dependant upon being told what it is. And whether or not we actually attain the ability to 'learn light' to the extent necessary to give us confidence, we still learn a lot. I am NOT saying that you must abandone meters and do what I say to do. I don't, for sure. But I do take time with film to challenge myself and to simply see how correct I have been. It is actually fun to do.

Even then, light meters do not KNOW what they are being pointed at: in the SAME light a black cat in a dark surrounding should, theoretically, demand the SAME exposure as a white cat in a light surrounding. After all, the (incident) light is the same in both cases. The reflective meter will state the relative exposures quite differently because that meter is so 'stupid' that it will think that anything that it is pointed to is 'medium grey'. We are supposed to know that we must correct that faulty reading, so the mental effort is not eliminatied with meters either.

And before anyone dares infer that I am not stupid I wish to remind all, again, that I cannot even do a damn crossword puzzle! - David Lyga
 
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BrianShaw

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I like EV... especially when the shutter is marked in EV.

I also like elipsises (gosh, I hope that is the proper plural of "elipsis")... but I prefer mine with three dots, not four or five. :laugh:
 

E. von Hoegh

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Doing crossword puzzles is an impossible task for me. I simply cannot solve puzzles. Getting nearly straight A grades in the accounting curriculum and passing the CPA Exam were easier. Figure out that craziness.

But figuring 'light' intensity, despite the changing luminary parameters, can also be a formidable task. When is shade, shade? Easier said than done but the key here is making 'shade' mean something very personal to you and not ever deviating from that perception.

Slowly learning how to harness this complex subject can, at least, be made easier by forgetting 'f stops' for a while. In fact, why are there such things as f stops at all for other than theoretical verification of that all important concept of the focal distance (to film plane, at infinity) divided by lens opening diameter ? Hollywood long ago entered the real world with their sensible 't stops' zeroing in on the ACTUAL light transmission. Much more rational. (Do I sound like the pragmatism of David Vestal yet?)

There is a certain freedom with taking an extension of your eye, a mechanical camera with adjustments available, and 'knowing' how to expose a certain film. I am still learning after decades of frustration but I am certainly better at it. It is intellectually revealing how right or wrong one can be and this exploration is perfect ammunition to circumvent, even diffuse, an overconfident ego. But there are certainly hurdles here: for example, shade at noon is not necessarily shade at noon merely a block away. Much depends upon the amount of sky allowed to illuminate the scene and whether clouds intervene. Then again, twilight is not an objective measure either: When is the sun low enough? Are buildings or mountains adding to the 'light value' confusion? But there is a kind of beginning benchmark with open, noon sunlight hitting an open space. But even here one has to look just how low that sun is in the dead of winter conflated with how high one's latitude is on planet earth.

I offer some tips that have helped me in this endeavor. First, translate 'f stops' to the less cumbersome light value system: f2 is '2', f2.8 is '3'....f16 is '8', f22 is '9. Then do the same for the time part: 1 sec is '0', 1/2 sec is '1'....1/30th sec is '5'.....1/250th sec is '8'....1/1000th sec is '10'. (You fill in the grammatical ellipses.)

Thus, we have a convenient, transferable way to express exposure at least, even if we have still not mastered light itself. To add to this convenience, rate film the same way. Consider a 400 ISO film. For me, I rate negative film about 2/3 stop less than the manufacturer says to. I would, thus, rate HP5+ or Tri-X at EI 250. Translated into light values this becomes (combined light value) LV 16. (NOT downgrading this speed from 400, this LV would be 17 if the manufacturer's recommendation were to be followed.) Similarly, I rate Pan F+ at EI 16. My 'rating' expressed in LVs is 12. What does all this mean?

Simply, this 'rating' is the amount of exposure given to a brilliant, sun lit, noontime, 'no holds barred' scene that is the epitome of what nature can provide in terms of light intensity. That is my outdoor benchmark. In other words I would expose HP5+ at 'LV 16'. This is the combination of aperture and shutter speed that I would use. For example, that would translate into f22 plus 1/125th sec, or f11 plus 1/500th sec. Both, conveniently and easily, add up to the '16' you want. In the former it would be 9 + 7, in the latter it would be 7 + 9. This is why I convert both apertures and shutter speeds into these easy numbers.

That's for brilliant sunlight. For other values: My exposure chart column is stated as follows for outdoor lighting: SUN SHD TWL DIM with each category giving four more stops (or, more correctly, steps) exposure than the preceding. This means that HP5+ starts at '16' for sun and proceeds to '12' for shade, then '8' for twilight, then '4' for dim daylight. So for MY interpenetration of 'shade' I would expose HP5+ at, say, 1/60th sec and f8, or '6' + '6' to get the wanted '12' LV. For MY interpretation of dim daylight I would expose HP5+ at, say, 1 sec and f4, or '0' + '4' to get the wanted '4'. You can see that it becomes extremely easy to change the aperture and shutter speeds to accommodate the exposure as all you have to do is add up to the proper combined LV.

The work comes with mentally anchoring the amount of light that 'sun' 'shade', 'twilight', 'dim' are supposed to represent in order to get proper exposure. For example, if the negative is too dense, you judged the light as too intense. 'Shade' does not necessarily have to be a shaded situation. It can be a level of overcast that equates with the level of proper shade. Likewise, 'TWL' does not have to be actual twilight; it can be a dark alleyway whose light intensity equates with the proper level of actual twilight. This is what really 'teaches' light, folks: refusing, on occasion, to bring your 'crutch' light meter with you. It is an exercise that forces you to come to grips with the reality of actual light intensity and correctly nullifies subjective interpretations that have little to do with this actual measure, such as assuming that shade is always of nearly the same intensity, or that twilight is 'when cars turn on their lights'. It forces you to really 'see' light in objective terms and removes the 'romantic' aspects of light interpretation that can easily get in the way.

The other side of my exposure chart is for 'tungsten light'. This side is a bit more complex, as the sensitivity of chromogenic (color or B+W) films are markedly more sensitive to the lower Kelvin (say 2800 K) than are traditional black and white films. (I assume NO filtration in all my examples). (For convenience, and usual accuracy, consider fluorescent to be the tungsten equivalent.) My side of the chart for tungsten is as follows: HIGH MED LOW DIM Each category requires two stops more exposure than the previous. For example, again using HP5+, a traditional B+W film, my rating for tungsten starts with '7' for HIGH, then '5' for MED, then '3' for LOW, then '1' for DIM. Here, importantly to understand, is that the SAME intensity exists for daylight's "DIM" and for tungsten's "DIM": the considerable difference in exposure (daylight dim = 4 while tungsten dim = only 1) is because traditional B+W film is very slow when exposed to tungsten light. The ACTUAL intensity of both 'dims' is the same. With chromogenic films this interpretation is more in line with human perceived value. With, say either a ISO 400 chromogenic B+W film or an ISO 400 color film, the tungsten chart is: '10' for HIGH, '8' for MED, '6' for LOW, '4' for DIM. Again, this assumes no 'proper' blue filtration for the chromogenic films. You can easily correct this 'lack' in the darkroom's enlarger. If you were to use the blue filtration (I think the 80A filter?) your numbers would be in line with those for traditional B+W films. Few realize just how much of a bonanza this is for available light black and white photography: an increase of three stops for using the chromogenic films without filtration.

With outdoor lighting the films' sensitivity is the same. - David Lyga

I can't afford to waste film, (you might wish to price 4x5 and 8x10 sheet film) and I won't waste the energy it takes to think through, set up, expose, and develop a photograph only to find it's improperly exposed. So I use an exposure meter - carefully and thoughtfully - whenever possible. Including 35mm, I lose a tiny fraction of 1% of my exposures to error.

I don't hunt game by firing blindly into the woods, either.
 
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E. von Hoegh

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I like EV... especially when the shutter is marked in EV.

I also like elipsises (gosh, I hope that is the proper plural of "elipsis")... but I prefer mine with three dots, not four or five. :laugh:

Singular - Ellipsis.

Plural - Ellipses.


...
 

Steve Smith

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I also like elipsises (gosh, I hope that is the proper plural of "elipsis")... but I prefer mine with three dots, not four or five. :laugh:

If they haven't got three dots......... then they're not elipsiseseseses.


Steve.
 

Steve Smith

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Doing crossword puzzles is an impossible task for me. I simply cannot solve puzzles. Getting nearly straight A grades in the accounting curriculum and passing the CPA Exam were easier. Figure out that craziness.

There's no craziness there. My mother is great at word and number puzzles, crosswords, Scrabble, etc. and even worked out the Rubik's cube when it first came out in a matter of hours.

I could probably do all of these things if I wanted to... I just can't see the point!


Steve.
 

DREW WILEY

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I've dropped my meter in a mtn creek a couple of times on long backpacking trips, had to estimate
the exposure for both b&w and color trans and got perfect exposures. But that's only because I've
metered analogous lighting thousands of times and my memory worked for once. Since I work primarily with 8x10 film the thought of bypassing a meter would otherwise amount to insanity. Film
that size isn't for machine-gunners.
 

E. von Hoegh

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I've dropped my meter in a mtn creek a couple of times on long backpacking trips, had to estimate
the exposure for both b&w and color trans and got perfect exposures. But that's only because I've
metered analogous lighting thousands of times and my memory worked for once. Since I work primarily with 8x10 film the thought of bypassing a meter would otherwise amount to insanity. Film
that size isn't for machine-gunners.

Nor is 35mm film.:wink:

Although it (35mm) was used in gun cameras...
 
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David Lyga

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E von Hoegh: I will not support your hunting efforts (am a vegetarian) but I meant to be using 35mm film. Obviously, using large format for this is rather obscene. - David Lyga
 

Steve Smith

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I will not support your hunting efforts (am a vegetarian)

Me too. Which is a bit at odds with using a gelatin based image recording system... but don't tell anyone!


Steve.
 

Vaughn

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Me too. Which is a bit at odds with using a gelatin based image recording system... but don't tell anyone!


Steve.

No, not necessarily...that would only worry a vegan, a sub-set of vegetarians.
 

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SNIP SNIP

..... I meant to be using 35mm film. Obviously, using large format for this is rather obscene. - David Lyga


david

99% of the photographs i take ( half frame - 8x10 ) i do is without a light meter.
it really isn't hard to judge light ... color, bw, c41 e6 .. even portrait work with a flash.
you just have to pay attention to the situation ...

how is it wasting the film ?
film and paper are very forgiving .. you don't really need a crazy scheme to do sunny 11 ...

start off on overcast days and work your way to bright sun and gloom from there ...

good luck
john
 
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From time to time I also just wing it. I used to carry a light meter and test myself to guess exposures, more often than not I was on or very close, so its not too difficult. I usually just go at it, and then dev these rolls with rodinal stand development to work its hocus pocus, and I get some decent shots out of it.
 
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David Lyga

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jnanian (and all): 'Obscene' was too strong a word. I really meant that if you are just starting out trying this lack of meter, then it could be very wasteful indeed.

But, jnanian, don't fall into the trap of relying upon the 'forgiving' aspect of negative materials (ie, E-6 is NOT so forgiving). Always relying upon such will reduce your need to know and that is what this thread is all about: learning how to hone your efforts into, or close to, perfection.

'Latitude' is not an attitude to adopt, Instead, it should be the ambulance that gets you to the emergency room on time. - David Lyga
 

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... and that is what this thread is all about: learning how to hone your efforts into, or close to, perfection.

If that is really the goal then I'm either totally confused or misled by prior training/experience. Why would anyone who seeks perfection intentionally atempt to eschew the best source of data for deterimining exposure - a light meter? Guessing exposure is a way to get "close enough"; Properly adapting known information (honing) is a way to get close to, or achieve, perfection... whatever that really is. Determining phiotographic exposure is not a test of manhood where guessing is better than measuring. No offense intended, David, but these conversations are to me akin to those that come up occasionally: how can I get precise, absolutely sharp images by guessing what I am focused on.
 
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E. von Hoegh

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If that is really the goal then I'm either totally confused or misled by prior training/experience. Why would anyone whop seeks perfectionintentionally atempt to eschew the best source of data for deterimining exposure - a light meter? Guessing exposure is a way to get "close enough"; Properly adapting known information (honing) is a way to get colse to, or achieve, perfection... whatever that really is. Determining phiotographic exposure is not a test of manhood where guessing is better than measuring. No offense intended, David, but these conversations are to me akin to those that come up occasionally: how can I get precise, absolutely sharp images by guessing what I am focused on.

Yes, next time I service an old radio I'll guess at the voltages...:confused::blink:
 
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David Lyga

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BrianShaw: you both 'make sense' and 'do not make sense'. I fully understand your consternation and, in a way, accept it. After all, it is firmly rooted in pragmatism.

Think of my diversion as simply delving into another mindset. In sum, I find it personally liberating to KNOW light. It just gives me an 'up' to not HAVE to rely upon meters. However, Brian, that is a far cry from me saying that I don't USE meters. (I try not to take escalators because I see advantages that many do not see by expending muscle strength.) My joy emanates from the enhanced knowledge about light even though I know that I probably will never be as 'smart' as the meter. I certainly do use them and will continue to do so. When I visit my 90 year old father in Connecticut, after I get off the train in Waterbury I take a city bus as close as I can get to him in the next town, Wolcott. I get off the bus about 1.5 miles (2 km) from his apartment. He always has a fit because one is not 'supposed' to 'have' to walk with suitcase in suburban Connecticut. I actually enjoy the walk and get great excercise, although those in Wolcott fail to see the 'benefit' because the addiction to cars is profound in that small town. I took the CPA Exam in 2011 SOLELY to see if I could pass it. At 62 I KNEW in advance that no one would have anything to do with that 'achievement'.

You know, someone once said that I am mildly autistic. I fret none over that and tend even to believe that. (I fret over proper wordage whenever I post here even though the same thought will be imparted without taking so much care.) Sometimes in life one simply DOES things for sakes other than pragmatism, such as: training oneself to perceive light; reading timetables SOLELY for the joy of seeing if one can guess the time it takes to get from point A to point B, even though one has no intention of taking the voyage; studying a foreign language SOLELY for the purpose of understanding one's own language's etymology better (Latin in high school helped me much here).

Years ago I think it was Modern Photography which did a story about a blind man learning photography. I did not think that venture ill-advised, as I am sure that he got something positive out of it, especially in hearing feedback from those who had eyesight. Indeed, us 'fortunates' with eyesight might not have that blind man's insight: We rarely think about that parameter.

When I was a child in the fifties the thought of 'crippled' people competing in an Olympics would have been downright cruel to think or talk about. How dare one taunt such unfortunates! Now, it is status and the para-Olympics are serious business and have aided considerably in removing that ill-fated stigma (which, let's face it, was really rooted in our collective arrogance which 'said' "thank God, kid, I am not like you").

I still think that you are correct, Brian, but only in an somewhat myopic way. I fully understand one rooted in pragmatism saying such. Who could disagree using those parameters? But I hope that I have at least opened possiblilties for an alternate viewpoint, one, perhaps more poetic than one rooted in strict objectivity.

It is wise to perceive that there are two sides to this frustrating, but informative, experience called life. And that dichotomy does not have to be perceived as wholly oppositional, but can well be considered to be both synergistic and compatible. - David Lyga
 
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BrianShaw

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I understand you, David... I just can't think like you . You are definitely a more "poetic" thinker than am I. I have never had that skill. :smile:
 
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David Lyga

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Maybe it's a flaw, Brian, But I am what I am. Thank you for your input. I must admit that your 'reaction' caused me to really think about the value of my post. I still agree with me but you have offered much perspective. - David Lyga
 
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