LF Dead? I think not!

cperez said:

That Goerz 6-1/2 inch Gold Ring Wide Angle Dagor went for $2,015!!!

Geez. For that price, couldn't a guy or gal find a nice Super Symmar XL? Or something?

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Sure, and probably if they shopped right three or four really nice lenses. It's the magic bulllet... Got to have it, so my stuff can be better than anyone elses. Then, think of the pride I have telling the little folks about my $2000 Goard, or whatever...

Super Size me

Well, here is a cynical view of why LF is all that in America. We have to have the big everything. Super Size those fries, I want the Giant Size laundry detergent, and dont forget the King Size box of whatever... And by God, I want 20% more FREE than the competitor's offering. If its bigger, it's got to be better. And the value, by damn we can't forget the value. Pass me those jumbo peanuts, will you?

Don't forget the American Dream! I need a 5000+ Sq/ft house, and a car that has a 400+ HP engine in it. I want to chase my Big Mac with a Big Gulp! Hardee's has a burger that is three patties and a pound of meat. It's the Monster Burger. Where is my Giant Grab Bag of chips? They got to be better than the "regular" size. I am not a citizen, I AM A CONSUMER!!! "In the news, consumer confidence is up, and third quarter spending rose 18% over last year." Help me out maam, where's the nearest Costco? I'm jonesin... I need a #10 can of green beans! BTW, love your big silicone....

I need more colors, more pixels, more flash and trash than anyone else. We even have extra wide caskets to bury our oversize butts in. I AM AN AMERICAN, THE KING OF CONSUMERS. SUPER SIZE ME!!!

Pragmatist said:

Well, here is a cynical view of why LF is all that in America. We have to have the big everything. Super Size those fries, I want the Giant Size laundry detergent, and dont forget the King Size box of whatever... And by God, I want 20% more FREE than the competitor's offering. If its bigger, it's got to be better. And the value, by damn we can't forget the value. Pass me those jumbo peanuts, will you?

Don't forget the American Dream! I need a 5000+ Sq/ft house, and a car that has a 400+ HP engine in it. I want to chase my Big Mac with a Big Gulp! Hardee's has a burger that is three patties and a pound of meat. It's the Monster Burger. Where is my Giant Grab Bag of chips? They got to be better than the "regular" size. I am not a citizen, I AM A CONSUMER!!! "In the news, consumer confidence is up, and third quarter spending rose 18% over last year." Help me out maam, where's the nearest Costco? I'm jonesin... I need a #10 can of green beans! BTW, love your big silicone....

I need more colors, more pixels, more flash and trash than anyone else. We even have extra wide caskets to bury our oversize butts in. I AM AN AMERICAN, THE KING OF CONSUMERS. SUPER SIZE ME!!!

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While I agree that in general this country has an addiction to all things large, I would disagree about that being a reason for the popularity/success of large format cameras here. I don't know anyone who is into large format gear JUST because it is bigger, or because it gives them bragging rights over someone else. You have to be into the process of working with large format gear in order to use it and enjoy it. I think it is probably a symptom of the Ansel Adams Effect. People want to emulate their "heroes", and to a very large quantity of people, Ansel was/is a hero. Monkey see, monkey do - the "great masters" of 20th century photography used large format, and I like what they got as results, so I too will use it.

I would agree 100% with your assessment when it comes to digital - the megapixel race is just insane and grotesque.

TheFlyingCamera said:

I would agree 100% with your assessment when it comes to digital - the megapixel race is just insane and grotesque.

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I think that one of the reasons that there is a "megapixel race" is that most people think they understand it. Example: Camera "A" offers 6 megapixels, while Camera "B" offers 8 megapixels, so Camera "B" must be better. In essence, it is the search for an easily understood objective and quantifiable measure of quality.

Most of us have long ago realized that while some meaningful criteria can be quantified, most (e.g. ergonomics, reliability, consistency, bokeh ) can only be observed and appreciated.

LF is healthy, because there are a lot of artists and craftspeople who understand both the objective and more or less quantifiable indicia of quality (e.g. grain, dmax, resolution) and those less quantifiable measures of quality (e.g. tonality, "sparkle", composition), and accordingly put them into good use when creating images.

My $0.02 worth.

Matt

Pragmatist said:

Well, here is a cynical view of why LF is all that in America. We have to have the big everything. Super Size those fries, I want the Giant Size laundry detergent, and dont forget the King Size box of whatever... And by God, I want 20% more FREE than the competitor's offering. If its bigger, it's got to be better. And the value, by damn we can't forget the value. Pass me those jumbo peanuts, will you?

Don't forget the American Dream! I need a 5000+ Sq/ft house, and a car that has a 400+ HP engine in it. I want to chase my Big Mac with a Big Gulp! Hardee's has a burger that is three patties and a pound of meat. It's the Monster Burger. Where is my Giant Grab Bag of chips? They got to be better than the "regular" size. I am not a citizen, I AM A CONSUMER!!! "In the news, consumer confidence is up, and third quarter spending rose 18% over last year." Help me out maam, where's the nearest Costco? I'm jonesin... I need a #10 can of green beans! BTW, love your big silicone....

I need more colors, more pixels, more flash and trash than anyone else. We even have extra wide caskets to bury our oversize butts in. I AM AN AMERICAN, THE KING OF CONSUMERS. SUPER SIZE ME!!!

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you do realize your (self proclaimed) cynical diagnosis goes against the very nature of what a majority, and likely all, of LFers describe as their affection towards the large cameras and their large negatives: methodology, slow work pace, contemplation. The actual examples you gave, 400hp car, big mac value meal, etc etc, all have at their root and very foundation that of a fast food nation. one where immediacy, speed and instant gratification are tantamount.

so without the effort of any outside parties, you managed to negate your argument by merely stating it.

Ellen,

Put a Dagor on it and sell them together!

The Horseman is a fine camera but there are a lot of studio rails out there cheap - good if you're buying, bad if you're selling.

Steve

scootermm said:

you do realize your (self proclaimed) cynical diagnosis goes against the very nature of what a majority, and likely all, of LFers describe as their affection towards the large cameras and their large negatives: methodology, slow work pace, contemplation. The actual examples you gave, 400hp car, big mac value meal, etc etc, all have at their root and very foundation that of a fast food nation. one where immediacy, speed and instant gratification are tantamount.

so without the effort of any outside parties, you managed to negate your argument by merely stating it.

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Yeah, but my argument is bigger than yours, so it must be better

Pragmatist said:

Yeah, but my argument is bigger than yours, so it must be better

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yes, and word count is truly all that matters, Mr Ellsworth Toohey.

Hmmm.

I came to LF and ultimately ULF not by way of Adams and company, but rather looking at figural work like that of Nicholas Nixon, Edward Weston, George Seeley and other Pictorialists. Having an interest in alternative process prints (gum bichromate, etc.) naturally lead me to contact printing and the requisite larger cameras to do such work. 11x14 is the smallest format you can fit a life-size head onto and contact print. That's the rationale for me. Had nothing to do with The Grand Landscape.

But most of all, using big cameras is a contemplative ritual while using smaller formats is more reactive, spontaneous. I remember getting my senior high school photograph taken by a photographer using a LF studio camera and the ritual made me curious. I've never been curious seeing someone with a handheld camera, unless the lens was huge and that's the "supersize it" influence again.

But that other thing...why does that photographer get under the darkcloth to perform that imaging ritual? What's he doing there and why does he suddenly look like a nun? Ritual, that's the key. Holding a glass plate to the sky and pouring collodion on it is a ritual not unlike a priest consecrating the sacrament. Due to my Catholic upbringing I was hooked the first time I saw Sally Mann pour a plate in that PBS spot. It's all ritual.

But I digress... On another note regarding lenses and the market: isn't an older Angulon very similar to a Dagor? The difference is just hype, marketing, rumor, reputationand a splash of gold enamel, isn't it? Likewise with Aplanats vs. Rapid Rectilinears. The more we talk about these lenses, the greater the demand and higher the price. But what also amazes me is that all of the classic images we admire were taken with older classic lenses which cost considerably less in the marketplace than the latest optical marvels at 10 times the price.

I have a couple old Velostigmats and Angulons that are just wonderful. I can't imagine needing a modern improvement. I bought several Verito Portrait lenses for around $200 a few years back. I love them and can't justify paying $3500 for that new Cooke Portrait lens, especially since it is such a short focal length. What would one cost for 11x14 coverage if they ever decided to make it? Probably more than my automobile.

The magic bullets were all made a long, long time ago in a land far, far away.

Joe

smieglitz said:

Hmmm.


But most of all, using big cameras is a contemplative ritual while using smaller formats is more reactive, spontaneous. I remember getting my senior high school photograph taken by a photographer using a LF studio camera and the ritual made me curious. I've never been curious seeing someone with a handheld camera, unless the lens was huge and that's the "supersize it" influence again.

But that other thing...why does that photographer get under the darkcloth to perform that imaging ritual?

The magic bullets were all made a long, long time ago in a land far, far away.

Joe

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Joe, apart from my slanderous asides, I think that you have hit it. I do know those for whom the name and size of the equipment are all that matters. It is not the work, but the appearance. Bah.

There is something about the feel of the equipment, the thought that must go into setting up a shot, and the multitude of choices that result in condensing a slice of four dimensional reality into two dimensional vision. The first time I looked at that upside down image, I was hooked.

4x5 is the largest format I currently work with. Some day, the camera will grow larger, as the range of my vision and technique grows larger also. Some possiblilities do change as the size increases.

smieglitz said:

But I digress... On another note regarding lenses and the market: isn't an older Angulon very similar to a Dagor? The difference is just hype, marketing, rumor, reputationand a splash of gold enamel, isn't it? Likewise with Aplanats vs. Rapid Rectilinears.

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Eh no - the Angulon is exactly the opposite to a Dagor. That's why the construction is called "reverse Dagor". Where the Dagor is +-+ the Angulon is -+-, and this necessitates different glasses too.

But RR and Aplanat can be considered synonyms.

Steve Hamley said:

Ellen,

Put a Dagor on it and sell them together!

The Horseman is a fine camera but there are a lot of studio rails out there cheap - good if you're buying, bad if you're selling.

Steve

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Oh bother! I don't have a Dagor I would have to buy a Dagor in order to sell a Dagor. Dag-gom-it!

Last man standing.

Campbell said:

Did someone say LF was dead? Medium format may be on life support but LF seems fine from all I can see.

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I'm not a large format user myself , but I think that if photograpy on film is to survive, as we all sincerely hope, L/F will be the last bastion of it's survival, not only on the grounds of the image quality it can produce , but the movements, and the ability to control perspective, and depth of field with rising front , swing back,. that digital cameras aren't at the moment capable of as far as I know, and judging by the cost of M/F digital backs, L/F digital backs would be prohibatively expensive,and it would be cheaper to shoot on film.

DeanC said:

My completely un-scientific take on what's going on is that digital is completely spanking the 35mm P&S market, spawning a renewed interest in photography in general and that people who are getting bitten by the photography bug for more than just snapshots seem to be becoming dissatisfied with digital and are looking very seriously at film based solutions. It won't surprise me at all if digital photography ultimately turns out to be very good for film based LF.

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Dean, you are right on. Just 3.5 years ago I got a digital P&S as a gift. Before that, I was never into photography. It completely started my interest in photography. Then I got my hands on an old Minolta SRT camera and appreciated film and the sense of quality. Well 3 years later and I have a 4x5" field camera and darkroom in my basement.

LF Format will always be around. Even if film ever dissapeared, people will still coat there own plates or make their own film. Plus LF cameras are in essence very simple devices. Light tight box with lens on one end and the medium on the other. If the day ever comes that no more 35mm or medium format cameras are made, the clock starts to tick on the remaining ones. Eventually they all will break or end up in collections. Focal plane shutters are desingned to cycle only so many times. Winders can only be operated so often before a part fatigues and fails. Sure there will be people to repair them, but if the factories do not make the parts, how long can that last?

You can buy a 150 year old plate camera, make your own bellows and repairs or refubish and mate it with a very sharp lens 70-80 years old. Even the most technically sophisticated part, the shutter, can be replaced with something a simple as a packard or a hat.

Jim Chinn said:

LF Format will always be around. Even if film ever dissapeared, people will still coat there own plates or make their own film.

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For some people Jim. Coating your own plates is fine, if you want to do B&W. But, 99.9% of my work is color; which means I have a lot less options than you do.

roteague said:

For some people Jim. Coating your own plates is fine, if you want to do B&W. But, 99.9% of my work is color; which means I have a lot less options than you do.

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C'mon Robert, it just means you have to coat three times as many plates as the B&W folks.

David A. Goldfarb said:

C'mon Robert, it just means you have to coat three times as many plates as the B&W folks.

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Then I get to shoot 3 times as much.