Lethal?

I frequently have black widow spiders hiding somewhere behind the darkroom sink. They can certainly inject you with something painful or even potentially lethal. One more reason to keep the rubber gloves on, even when doing a minor plumbing repair.

Tom1956 said:

It is a fact that in all of photographic history, more photographers have been killed by photo-chemical poisoning that have been killed in a 100 square foot area in Detroit in 1 month.

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Do many people get killed in this 100 square foot area in Detroit in one month?

Tom1956 said:

It is a fact that in all of photographic history, more photographers have been killed by photo-chemical poisoning that have been killed in a 100 square foot area in Detroit in 1 month.

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I suppose that just depends on which 100 square foot area you're referring to: a particular one, or any selected at random? Still, that sort of ominous comparison doesn't sound appealing to any photographer. Are you attempting to steer us to digital?

Photo Engineer said:

Elemental Mercury has a hing vapor pressure and the fumes formed thereby are quite toxic.

PE

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Makes me wonder what the stuff I played with as a kid was. Grandpa had some in a jar and I used to play with it for hours on the back steps.

madgardener said:

Makes me wonder what the stuff I played with as a kid was. Grandpa had some in a jar and I used to play with it for hours on the back steps.

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Oh, I'm sorry to tell you then that you are dead.

madgardener said:

Makes me wonder what the stuff I played with as a kid was. Grandpa had some in a jar and I used to play with it for hours on the back steps.

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Our family dentist when I was a little kid (50+ years ago) would shine up a dime with a little mercury and give it to us if we behaved.

Steve, I think that it would be inappropriate to continue with this thread. Really.

PE

Personally I wonder who gets on here and starts these doomsday threads. You'd think we were working with Kryptonite.

Let's talk about how lethal general anaesthetics are. This thread has become too tame...

Tom1956 said:

Personally I wonder who gets on here and starts these doomsday threads. You'd think we were working with Kryptonite.

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On the other hand I gave myself asthma by blow-drying freshly coated platinum prints for 5 years...and not wearing a good dust mask. Not lethal, and a minor case, but still there.

dorff said:

One should add, the effort of trying to buy a neurotoxin might kill you before you have it to inject. Those things don't lie around on the open market (thankfully!).

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Oh yes they do! For example, here in the U.S., Malathion, an organophosphate, is available to any adult in sizes up to a quart of 50% solution at places like K-Mart. Sevin, a carbamate, is another very popular neurotoxin insecticide available almost anywhere, as liquid or powder. Both are cholinesterase inhibitors, like for example, Sarin nerve agent, and Sarin has in its function similarities to both. Sarin, however, is extremely toxic, while neurotoxin insecticides are much less toxic, in a comparable dose.

Malathion and Sevin are considered to have low toxicity at specified use concentrations- e.g., Sevin is used on animals to kill fleas, mites, etc. But the concentrations (active ingredient/inert ingredient ratio) at which they can be purchased is much higher. Mishandling those concentrates can easily be deadly, and any adult can acquire those concentrates over the counter.

Malathion is not very toxic in moderate doses, but it can be easily converted into a severe poison by a simple treatment.

PE

Two college photo profs of mine died. One from Parkinson's and the other died from brain cancer. Don't know of it's caused from photo chems. But toxic chemicals will slowly kill you if you get too cozy with them.

We have nearly 2000 Kodak researchers who worked for years with these chemicals and who stubbornly refuse to die of anything strange outside of normal statistics so I doubt if there is a really big problem.

Grant Haist himself, the most "hands on" person I know is about 92.

PE

Photo Engineer said:

Malathion...can be easily converted into a severe poison by a simple treatment.

PE

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I was not aware of that, PE.

To distill my main point in the previous post, neurotoxins are readily available, and in concentrations which can be lethal if mishandled.
With Malathion, the most commonly used ratio of carrier to active ingredient is 256:1. The ratio when used as a fog is 256:11.
The ratio of the concentrate is 1:1.

Sometimes a much smaller amount is used. Medfly aerial Malathion spraying over urban areas used a sweet, sticky bait, and was applied at the rate of one ounce per acre- probably a carrier/a.i. ratio of over a thousand to one.

Not trying to scare anybody- I've had a California Qualified Applicator Certificate for decades, and am experienced in chemical use. I don't fear the chemicals I've used, but I do respect them. A QAC doesn't make a person conscientious, but it does establish a responsible party who faces sanctions and possible prosecution for improper storage, handling, or application.
Pesticides are much better controlled now, and practices are much better, also. When I was about 15 and living in a rural area in California's Central Valley, we received heavy wind drift of Parathion. We were all very sick, including our animals, and our goldfish died. There were sick birds outside on the lawn, some dying. Nowadays, profligate and irresponsible applications such as were common then would mean prosecution and lawsuits. Back then, it was just "Oops".

The discovery of the more toxic version of Malathion was made in CA, when many orchard workers became sick due to this simple chemical conversion. The toxicity of Malathion can be increased manyfold and it cam become very toxic to humans.

I was sprayed many times in FL when at the Cape. They misted us by land and air.

PE

A bit off topic but Agatha Christie fans should get a copy of "The Poisonous Pen of Agatha Christie" by Michael C Gerald. Christie worked as a pharmacist and nurse during WWI. She later was to use poison in roughly half of her novels. This book discusses each of the poisons used. Her favorite was arsenic trioxide, colorless, odorless, and tasteless and easily soluble in a cup of hot chocolate.

Back in the 70s I worked with a photographer who had the instruction leaflet for the old E4 process stuck on the darkroom wall with the health warning highlighted and a handwritten notation "If conscious, call an ambulance otherwise an undertaker might be more useful". I seem to recall that there was a particularly nasty ingredient that was used, I think, as a fogging agent in that process. OzJohn

E4 fogging agent? That was tertiary butyl-amine borane (aka TBAB) and ,yes, it was very toxic indeed.

I see quite a lot of bad talk about Selenium from various places, but no one here is making their own Selenium toners out of Se powder, so I'd say it's fairly hyped in the grand scheme of things.

Check out the KRST MSDS lately?

Weight % Components - (CAS-No.)
55-60 Water (7732-18-5)
25-30 Ammonium thiosulphate (7783-18-8)
10-15 Sodium sulphite (7757-83-7)
1-5 Selenious acid, disodium salt (10102-18-8)

1-5% sodium selenite, that one dilutes a further 10-20 times (working solution) down to .05-.25% total Na2O3Se per volume of toner used. Let's just say that's 2.5-5.0g per 1000ml of water (I know, it's not exact) and one has their hands in it. Does one really believe they're magically absorbing all of this selenium into the body without a: the toner becoming useless, b: noticing quite quickly with common symptoms of selenium overdose? My only hand contact with working solution KRST is when I pull the print out of the toner - the rest of the time I'm just doing tray rocking. It's not exactly on the list of substances where cumulative exposure is a risk either - seeing as it's a natural mineral we all ingest. Granted, garlic, a natural selenium source, contains probably a 1,000,000 times less Se than 2.5g of Se, but I'm not *eating* my selenium toner.

Developer I use tongs just to avoid the potential for metol sensitization - but switch to fingers if print size is large.

Want a good time? Just mix some potassium ferricyanide bleach with an extremely strong acid (maybe glacial acetic acid concentrate will fit the bill). Liberation from the Fe should bring a nice almond scent to the darkroom and accompanying funeral. Also want a good time? Pour gasoline onto the darkroom floor and smoke a pack of Marlboros while waiting for the eventual ignition.

These two examples are thrown out there because they're both stupid careless acts that would take *effort* to achieve a bad outcome in. Just because something has the *potential* of being dangerous if misused - doesn't mean it's inherently dangerous when used appropriately.

Photo Engineer said:

We have nearly 2000 Kodak researchers who worked for years with these chemicals and who stubbornly refuse to die of anything strange outside of normal statistics so I doubt if there is a really big problem.
PE

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Which shows the effectiveness of adhering to proper practices, and how a person who does so can work safely for decades. I told people who asked if I was worried about harm from the chemicals I handled, "No, but I'm always aware of the potential. I don't cut corners, and I don't take chances. To work safely, safety must be routine."

So as long as I don't pour Fixer on my breakfast cereal every morning, I'm ok?

Don't get me going on malathion and parathion. A close friend of mine was in charge of the EPA pesticide monitoring for the San Joaquin Valley.
They'd find flaggers dead in the fields, drippy barrels of bootleg illegal parathion - the concentrate would kill you within twenty minutes if you
touched it. It was a lot like drug enforcement. .. a big bucks illegal trade coming from Mexico until they finally got the plants shut down there. My friend almost exploded with all kinds of strange cancer and died in his early 50's, just like the cropdusters themselves. Makes me very glad I never went to work for the EPA myself. ... But next door to my office there are a lot of cabinet shops. A well seasoned veteran of the business sometimes tries to hire help, and the first thing he asks a potential young employee is, Are you afraid of that table saw over there? If he replies No, he is instantly rejected. Some things you should be afraid of if you're going to safely handle them day after day.

DREW WILEY said:

Are you afraid of that table saw over there? If he replies No, he is instantly rejected. Some things you should be afraid of if you're going to safely handle them day after day.

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I understand what they are getting at, but this seems like a poorly structured "test" question. Too much second guessing on the part of the job applicant.

But you get the point... Just because a particular form of fabrication is routine doesn't make it safe. I happen to sell a lot of woodworking machinery and do care enough to ask basic questions first. ... and every once in awhile I will simply refuse to sell a particular machine to a
potential customer who seems to be an idiot. People can get seriously hurt. Granted, this entire thread is under the black and white heading, which in the ordinary sense of silver gelatin supplies is fairly innocuous compared to darkroom color printing or certain alt procedures. But even under the classification of silver development, I routinely work with nasty stuff like pyro and glacial acetic acid. But the rubber gloves and fume hood etc are always in use too. No difference working in a kitchen. One learns there are just certain things you do need to be afraid of - like putting your hand on a hot burner! But in that case the nature of mistake is immediately apparent. With things like lead, mercury, cadmium, and chromium salts, the horrible nature of carelessness might appear much too late to remedy it.