Les: Drydown question

[Nige]

I don't know what to call it, and Bruces explanation is good enough for me, but RC paper definitely looks different half wet (ie just pulled out of wash to examine) compared to dry. I use Agfa Semi-Matt usually.

Having been following this thread, I printed something last night that initally I thought I'd under printed (but had started packing up so didn't reprint). This morning I had a look and gee.. it's spot on!

 

[Les McLean]

Nige Wrote
Having been following this thread, I printed something last night that initally I thought I'd under printed (but had started packing up so didn't reprint). This morning I had a look and gee.. it's spot on!


That's called drydown Nige. Your highlights shouldn't be visable on a wet fibre paper, in the morning they will be just on the paper where they should be.[/b]

 

[Nige]

Les, this was on RC (Agfa). I've got the feeling that both aspects (wet look and dry down) can come into play. After reading your article on dry down I had been deducting approx 10% off exposure times (both RC and FB but I haven't actually tested the correct anount... I just went with something simple and near your estimations) and I had been very happy. Based on whats written here about RC paper it must just be working with my print viewing lighting setup. I recently got a Colorstar analyser which I've been playing with but it doesn't compensate (that I'm aware of.. I don't have a manual) for dry down and have been using the exposure that it indicate without modification.

 

[Ed Sukach]

I recently got a Colorstar analyser which I've been playing with but it doesn't compensate (that I'm aware of.. I don't have a manual)...

Did I neglect to send you a copy of the ColorStar 3000 Manual?

If so, send me an address by PM and I'll correct that AT ONCE!!!

 

[Flotsam]

This has been a very interesting and informative thread.

I agree with Bruce Barnbaum about "wet up". It is imperative to judge exposures while printing with the print out of solution and blotted free of any surface liquid. But I also am certain that a print darkens further as it actually dries. I am not talking about a subjective judgement of the overall look of a print, I am referring to a clear, objective, comparative difference in a light tone adjacent to a paper white border. I don't believe that this tonal difference can be explained fully by the intensity of the darkroom inspection light vs. the light that the displayed print will eventually be viewed under so I would have to put myself in the Drydown due to shrinkage camp with Les and others here.

Huge thanks to Les for his generous contribution to this topic, to Bruce Barnbaum for allowing his writing to be added to the discussion and John for the technical help. Likewise to everyone else that added their thoughts and expriences on the topic. This is what makes APUG such a valuable and unique resource.

 

[Foto Ludens]

I might be beating a dead horse here, but if I am, nobody told me why (so brace yourselves)

Back to the microwave technique-

Friday I printed a few shots on Afga Multicontrast 111, and used at least 2 test strips to determine exposure: one in increments, the other as what seemed like the best time. Both were correctly processed, even hypo-cleared, then microwaved for 40 seconds (or enought to dry completely).

2 days later, and the microwaved strips look exactly like the dried fiber prints (which were toned is Sistan, but that shouldn't matter).

So my question is this: Why isn't microwaving test strips regarded (at least by some) as a legitimate way around dry down?

 

[Ka]

André,

At what setting did you have your microwave?

 

[Foto Ludens]

The microwave was on high (power 10/10). I've found that a minute on high, and the strips burn (gain a warm tone), 30 secs and they are still moist.

The microwave in college, though, took up to 2 minutes.

Not properly washing the strips also seems to alter the tone when dry.

 

[Ka]

How Do f/stop timers work?

How Does the f/stop timer function Differ from that of the Second tick-tocking timer?

(excuse the non-tech. verbage)

Also, I'm not quite understanding how one calculates drydown percentages. Clearly, I know it's about 10%, by looking at my own work... but how do I KNOW for sure. Do I need to know? I find I want to know everything.

 

[Flotsam]

Andre, First. I don't think that any thread should be closed as long as people are interested enough to take the time to propel it with contributions. This is traditional photography, it isn't as if topics become obsolete in a week (or a decade).

I don't have a microwave handy to my darkroom but I do have a hairdryer. I would assume that aside from minor differences in shrinkage between fast drying and slow drying it should work just fine. You already mentioned that there can problems with heat drying prints that are not fully fixed or washed. I take your successful experience as the best proof that it works.

Ka, I use a poor man's f-stop timer. A regular timer with a printed f-stop chart on the wall. I find it a very convenient way to think in terms of stops while printing at an affordable cost ($zip). I found the chart on the 'net, if you have any interest, I can give you the URL.

 

[Les McLean]

Using the microwave to dry test strips is OK and provides you with accurate information regarding the amount of drydown involved but what it will also do is change the colour of the print especially when using warm tone papers like Ilford Warmtone or or some of the Forte range. Apprantly, when the paper is deried quickly it becomes warmer in print colour. I was told this many years ago and have checked it out and it is a fact although of course it may not be relevant in the production of the final print for if it is to be toned it will change colour anyway.

If anyone is interested I do have a drydown chart in my computer which will help you calculate the drydown time once you have assessed the wet test strip. I'd be happy to email it to anyone who wants it but I'm not going to try to post it to the forum after all the problems I had with the Barnbaum piece. email me at les.mclean1@btopenworld.com if you have my book it is reproduced on page 88 in the section where I cover how to calculate the drydown factor of your papers.

Ka, fstop printing is a confusing description of that method of timing print exposure for it implies that the lens fstops are moved, they are not. I describe an fstop in printing terms as a measure of exposure and that is in seconds. I use the Stop Clock Pro made by RH Designs it allows me to select from 1/2 stop to 1/24th stop increments, I tend to use 1/6th stop and 1/24th for very fine tuning. Very briefly it works as follows, you select a starting time, say 10 seconds, and set the timer accordingly. When activated the timer will give the paper the 10 second exposure and calculate the correct time for the increment you are working in and will continue doing this until you reach the end of your test strip. If you choose 1/6 thstop as I do after 7 exposures you have given the paper 2 stops, 10 seconds for the first followed by 6 further increments of 1/6th of a stop. It may sounf a little complicated but once you have tried it you will very quickly understand it a nver go back to the old linear timing method.If you need some more info send me a PM and I'll try to help.

 

[jovo]

having read the above regarding fstop printing techniques (and not understanding it very well), i googled the matter and found:
www.ephotozine.com/techniques/viewtechnique.cfm?recid=71. i think i've got it now.

the timer les refers to seems quite expensive and needs to be imported from the uk. i'll give it a go using the new lpl digital timer i just got. after i win the lottery i'll get the dedicated timer.

 

[Foto Ludens]

Using the microwave to dry test strips is OK and provides you with accurate information regarding the amount of drydown involved but what it will also do is change the colour of the print especially when using warm tone papers like Ilford Warmtone or or some of the Forte range.

Just making sure-

The final prints are dried naturally (on screens), only the test strips are microwaved. I belive that the minor shift in warmth that does occur in the agfa paper is insignificant since I know what the paper looks like air dried. I do not work with warmtones, so that might be a nuisance fo those who do.

By the way, Ka, if it helps you any, try thinking of paper times in terms of percentages instead of f-stops if those get confusing. It's what I do.

1 stop more is twice the amount of light, so 100% more time
1 stop less is half the amount of light, so 50% of the time
I've found out that a 20% difference in time (1/5 of a stop) can make or brake a print... (not to imply that I'm a great printer)

 

[Flotsam]

Here's an f-stop printing chart. The one that I use is much easier to read but I don't remember where I found it. Mucho cheaper than a Stopclock.

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/articles/f-stop-printing.pdf

 

[Ka]

Thanks for all the info.. ephotozine has some other interesting articles as well.

 

[JHannon]

"the timer les refers to seems quite expensive and needs to be imported from the uk. i'll give it a go using the new lpl digital timer i just got. after i win the lottery i'll get the dedicated timer."


If you are handy building electronic kits, here is a link to a discussion here on a F-stop timer kit (about $100US).

I built the kit and it works very well, has some nice features including a test strip mode. I had just starting doing things in f-stops using a chart and this is much easier.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

In reference to the microwave - I remember seeing a documentary film about Ansel Adams. He tore an 11X14 test print in half and used the microwave to dry. I have never tried it but it seems like a good idea --as long as my wife won't mind

Regards,
John



[/quote]

 

[Cheryl Jacobs]

Just wanted to put in a plug for the method Dave mentioned of avoiding drydown by preventing shrinkage. He was kind enough to send me the how-to, and I've been converted. I tried it on Bergger fiber matte, Bergger fiber glossy, and Ilford Gallerie. The drydown, best as I can estimate it, was 0%, 0%, and maybe 1%, respectively. This is one of the test print, no scanning adjustments, and it looks exactly like it did wet.

Thanks, Dave.

Dead Link Removed

- CJ

 

[Jeanne]

Please share! Is it more involved than the standard taping to glass and cutting away once dry?
Thanks --
Jeanne

(lovely print Cheryl!)

 

[fschifano]

I use RC paper a lot more often than I do fiber based paper and, my experience indicateds that RC paper will exhibit some dry down effect, though less than that of fiber based papers. So while the base doesn't swell, the emulsion surely must, however slightly, for this effect to be noticed. It is very subtle. I noticed it only when I tried to print a shot that I'd made with too much flash. While the print was still wet the faces had no texture at all, but the next morning there was some detail in those areas of the print. It's still a lousy photograph, but it did show me approximately quantify the dry down effect with this particular paper.

 

[poozled]

First post here... Hello everyone.

Regarding dry-down: From my experience dry-down is something which occurs at different rates for different papers. In general I have noted less dry down with a matt or semi matte surface (like MCP 118) than I have found with glossy (such as MCP 111). This seems to be consistant behaviour (again IMO) to other papers with different paper brands depending on whether the paper is semi matte or gloss. In the case of a paper like MCP 118 sometimes it is easy to judge the final print because there is less dry-down to the point where I can safely say there will be minimal dry-down, and from memory--this is often the case.

 

[esanford]

I am new to this forum and a little nervous about participating because it appears there are established roles such as resident experts. However, at the risk of making a fool of myself I will try a reply. First of all, I think "you all" are making too much of a very simple subject. All papers dry down (some more than others). There is a simple way to handle dry down if you do some up front work. Start by making a correctly exposed (i.e. to your eye) print. Leave it wet. Then, make a series of prints 2% less exposure, 4% less exposure, 6% less exposure, 8% less, 10% less, 12% less, and 14% less. Then, dry each of the test exposures. (use a microwave if you want to get them done quickly). Then, match the one that looks like the print that you have kept wet. Voila, you have found the dry down index for that paper. I did this test with Ilford Gallerie and for my purposes, I have found an 8% dry down factor on Both Grades 1 & 2. If you use VC paper, just think, you only have to do this once. I have used this for several years and it is dead accurate. Periodically, I will test a new pack of paper. Now, if you change paper manufacturers, you have to do the test again... I am fortunate enough to have a Zone VI cold light stabilizer. When I make my best wet print (which becomes my pilot) I dial in 8% on the dry down meter and I can make 100 prints from the same paper and print 1 and 99 look exactly alike. Calumet Zone VI also has a dry down meter on its cold light timer. If you don't have these tools, the tests + a calculator works fine. To me that is all that needs to be known about dry down. By the way, if you believe "AZO" doesn't dry down, do this test, you'll verify it. Bottom Line: who cares whether papers shrink or not if you can make consistently good exposures?

 

[Cheryl Jacobs]

who cares whether papers shrink or not if you can make consistently good exposures?

Um, I do. Because by preventing shrinkage, I can also prevent the 'curly print' problem while I eliminate drydown. And I can do it without having to do a bunch of tests. Makes sense to me.

 

[esanford]

I knew this post was going to get me into trouble. Having said that, I completed the test once, my framer solves my "curly print problem" while I dance in the woods like an elf with my camera.

 

[Cheryl Jacobs]

Heh heh. Nope, you'll have to try harder than that to get in trouble! LOL. I don't use a framer, so I have to deal with the damn scrolled-up print myself. I love Bergger papers, but I've found them to be the worst offenders. If I don't tape it down to dry, I have to drag all my curly prints to a local darkroom to use their drymount press (I don't have one) and press them, trying to avoid creasing the corners in the process, and then bring them home and weight them so they don't curl back up. What a pain! So, the taping-down-the-print method is perfect for me.

 

[Flotsam]

esanford,
Welcome to the group. There are people here with a wide variety of backgrounds, interests and expertise. This variety of contributors is what makes APUG such a great resource. I hope that you will contribute your own experience and opinions.

Les is highly regarded as a Printer, Teacher and Writer but the reason that I addressed him specifically in the thread title was because I was referencing a post that he had made in a previous thread which I could not manage to locate.

Your method of dealing with drydown is almost identical to the method that Les describes in his book. I haven't been this formal about dealing with drydown yet but I would probably benefit from it and will try it soon.