Lens Question - perhaps antique?

[Bryan Miller]

New to this forum and I would sincerely appreciate any wisdom that can be shared regarding my question below.

I am looking for a 4x5 lens, perhaps 135mm or 150mm (or equivalent), that does NOT render a perfect scene. In other words, a lens that naturally has a small image circle producing a vignette and that naturally goes a bit soft towards the corners.

I photograph quite a bit with my 4x5 camera and love the detail, tones, etc. However, I also photograph quite a bit with a holga (portraits) and enjoy the nostalgic quality of the final print -- but would really like to achieve a similar look/mood with the 4x5 for two reasons. 1). more control over the exposure and 2). larger negative to reproduce a larger print.

Again, any advice would be sincerely appreciated. Thank you.

 

[SteveH]

Mr. Miller,
If you are looking for something like that, you have many options. Perhaps the cheapest would be to look for an old AGFA or something of the like that came off of an old folding camera. Most don't quite cover 4x5; so you will have a rather sharp center that bleeds off around the corners. Also, it will decrease your contrast - adding to that look perhaps ?
Of course, there are many other options - petzvals, meniscus lenses, ad nauseum. Do a search around here for 'petzval' and look at some examples. Also, if you view my homepage, you'll find a scan from a home-made meniscus lens that I created.

Oh, and welcome to APUG !

 

[Ole]

One important question is whether or not you need a shutter?

If you use a Speed Graphic or similar, you can put just about anything on it, since you don't need the lens to be in a shutter. At least that was my excuse for getting a pre-anniversary Speed Graphic...

If you need a shutter, that limits the choises quite a bit. Mostly because most 135 to 150mm lenses were actually made for 4x5", so they will be nice and sharp all the way out in the corners...

One unusual "solution" is to use only the rear half of a 90mm Angulon or similar. That should give (quick mental calculation, might be off by 20%) a 165mm f:12 lens with poor coverage and nice field curvature - especially wide open! It's not as crazy as it sounds, the Angulon was marketed as convertible the first few years!

 

[keithwms]

Bryan, why not just use a 'good' lens and making yourself a vignetting mask, that is very easy and will give you more control over your effect than buying an inferior lens with limited capabilities. Of course you can also buy vignetting filters:

http://www.freestylephoto.biz/sc_prod.php?cat_id=&pid=1794

Also, you can apply many such effects in the darkroom from a good starting image, that's also very controllable.

 

[Bryan Miller]

Fantastic! Thank you all so much for the responses. I believe the speed graphic comes with a 127mm lens, correct? Sounds like a reasonable option. I'll also search for petzvals. Thank you!

I do need a lens with a shutter option.

I find that trying to produce this particular look from a perfect negative is not quite as effective. One, a vignette that has been produced entirely in the darkroom has a tendency to not translate as seamlessly as one that is naturally produced by the lens. But more importantly, it's the soft nature/low contrast of these lenses that produces the magic for me personally.

Hope that makes some sense

thank you all again !

 

[glbeas]

I think Keith was referring to the use of the vignette on the camera. It doesn't need to be anything expensive either, a bit of cellophane rubber banded to the lens front with a hole cut in the center. The effect is modified by the size of the hole and the distance from the lens and the aperture used. Theres also cheap softening filters you can try. Also a really cheap closeup filter added to the front or back of the lens can seriously degrade the image to your liking. All cheaper options than an antique lens, though once experimenting you can opt for that if you find you are really getting in to it.

 

[John Bartley]

A couple of years ago, I tried a lens from an Autographic 3A (postcard size - 3.5" x 5.5" ?) on my Calumet 4x5 monorail. It produced exactly the effect that you have asked about. 3A's are almost disposable items now as the bellows fail badly if not properly stored, but the lenses and shutters are often just fine - check local flea markets - I bought mine for about $5.00 as I recall.

 

[jimgalli]

You'll ultimately find that what you're looking for and better exposure control may not go hand in hand with the 4X5. The lenses that will give you what you want are mostly old projector lenses with no aperture or shutter. Wade through my web pages below. Happily many of them are cheap by the lot on Ebay.

 

[keithwms]

I think Keith was referring to the use of the vignette on the camera. It doesn't need to be anything expensive either, a bit of cellophane rubber banded to the lens front with a hole cut in the center. The effect is modified by the size of the hole and the distance from the lens and the aperture used. Theres also cheap softening filters you can try. Also a really cheap closeup filter added to the front or back of the lens can seriously degrade the image to your liking. All cheaper options than an antique lens, though once experimenting you can opt for that if you find you are really getting in to it.

Yes, sorry for my lack of clarity. Bryan, you can make yourself a good vignetter in less than a minute and it will produce any effect you want. The fancier $10 option I linked to would be used on the camera as well.

It's hard to tell exactly what effect you want but, you know, people have been known to stretch pantyhose across a lens or even put a skylight filter on the lens that is lightly rubbed with oil or vaseline...!

 

[Logan Group]

I’m in the process of setting up my Sinar system to go for a similar look that Bryan described. I am looking at some old lenses like Darlot and a few other and I will mount it (or I should say have Adam at S.K. grimes mount it) on a Sinar board without a shutter. I am looking for accurate and repeatable results with the “look” of an old lens. So I will use my meter back on my Sinar to determine the exposure and use a Sinar Shutter (a shutter on the front standard of the camera as opposed to being on the lens) to control the exposure. This may sound a little ridiculous to set up but the biggest problems I have found with these old lenses is they either have no shutter, a crappy shutter that is only good on “B” or “T”. Buying even a couple of used Copal or Compur shutters to fit each lens would be very expensive and then they typically have to be custom machined for each individual lens. S.K. Grimes is known for outstanding craftsmanship, but with a serious price tag to mount old lenses to shutters. This way by incorporating the shutter into the camera I only have to mount to lens on a board, a much more reasonable investment that several shutters that require custom machining. And the Sinar shutter will be more accurate than any older shutter like an Ilex or Betax.

Besides half the fun of all this is just seeing if I can make it all work.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Bryan Miller wrote "I am looking for a 4x5 lens, perhaps 135mm or 150mm (or equivalent), that does NOT render a perfect scene. In other words, a lens that naturally has a small image circle producing a vignette and that naturally goes a bit soft towards the corners."

Ain't no such lens made for 4x5, lenses made for 4x5 are designed to cover the format. You want a lens made to cover a smaller format that will illuminate, perhaps not quite illuminate, 4x5.

The 127/4.7 Ektar won't do for you, it covers 4x5 with no movements. But a 150/9 Apo Ronar might do the trick, also nearly any 5" or so triplet or Rapid Rectilinear. The problem with finding an RR is that ones as short as 5" are uncommon.

 

[Jon Shiu]

Hi, it's also possible to mount a shutter with adjustable speeds onto the Holga.

Jon

 

[Ole]

... also nearly any 5" or so triplet or Rapid Rectilinear. The problem with finding an RR is that ones as short as 5" are uncommon.

I wouldn't be so certain of the "lack of coverage" of short RR's - I have a 3 1/4" Rapid Rectilinear that covers 4x5" with movements! The problem with RR's is that there were very few made for smaller sizes than 1/4 plate, so even the very short ones have a tendency to cover 4x5".

 

[ineffablething]

Here's one I'm selling on Ebay right now.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&viewitem=&item=150066260075&rd=1&rd=1

 

[Kobin]

This is where that Kodak 105/f4.5 anastigmat might come in handy. The unscrupulous or ignorant sell these as a 4x5 lens on ebay; it was designed to cover a 6.5x9 cm, I believe, so it should have all the characteristics you're looking for, and they're dirt cheap when you can find them.

K.

 

[Mark Fisher]

I'm on a similar quest. I ended up making a simple symettric lens for an 8x10 camera and I am in the process (OK, I've bought the lens elements) of making a similar one for my 4x5. I tried a Rapid Rectilinear and it was too sharp for what I wanted so I decided I could make a worse lens .
I'll probably cobble together a Packard shutter to go with it eventually. If this is interesting to you, check out Alan Greene's book Primitive Photography. I bought my lens elements from www.anchoroptics.com.

I do like the idea of the 90mm Angulon rear element only....I wonder it it would be bad enough......

 

[Bryan Miller]

I honestly cannot thank all of you enough for the feedback. Absolutely brilliant forum here.... can't believe I just found it (SK Grimes sent me over here).

Also nice to see the artwork from some very talented photographers!

@ ineffablething - could you be so kind as to point me to a universal lens mount? thanks!

Thank you all again!

 

[Ole]

There's a picture of an universal lens mount here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[jimgalli]

Just listed an antique lens that vignettes 4X5 and is soft wide open at f4.5

Bryan, I've just listed a little antique lens in the classifieds that would do exactly what you've described on 4X5.

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[Dan Fromm]

Jim, cute little lens, but the OP started out wanting a lens with focal length more or less normal for 4x5 and with bad properties, not a perfectly fine normal lens for 6x7 or so. Yes, I know, can't have everything all at once.

 

[jimgalli]

Normal focal length lenses for a 4X5 that vignette are an oxy-moron.

 

[Dan Fromm]

Jim, of course you're right, but I have a paperweight that might do what the OP seems to want. 150/2.8 Elcan, ex Vinten F95. Made to cover 6x6, might just cover 6x7 but certainly no more than that.

One of my many purchasing blunders, but at $19 delivered not too painful. Now that I have it I know for sure that I absolutely positively can't use it on my 2x3 Graphics or Nikons. Back focus < 50 mm, barrel too fat to clear a 2x3 Speed's lens throat. But for 6x6 on a 4x5 Speed -- why bother? -- it might serve well.

Cheers,

Dan