Leica thread mount cameras: first two exposures can have shutter capping issues?

[js98367]

I just had my Leica IIIf CLA'd and the shutter curtains replaced.

On my first test roll upon receiving the camera back from repair, I began by making exposures at 1/1000 and 1/500 to check for shutter capping: also called "tapering" where the second curtain catches up with the first curtain while within the film gate, producing no image in the worst case or a partial image on the negative.

I noticed a ~5mm lack of density on the left side of the negative when viewed in the same orientation as the scene I photographed. On a scan/print it would appear that the left side of the picture slides into darkness.

This shutter capping only happened on the first two exposures, then cleared up for the rest of the 24 exposure roll that was exposed all using the same 1/1000 or 1/500 shutter speeds.

I plan to expose a couple more rolls to see if this "first two exposure" issue is repeatable.

I immediately communicated my findings to the popular and respected shop that did the work and the technician responded quickly saying that this is "normal for a camera of this age". He explained that he could adjust the tension to correct the first two exposures, but that subsequent high speed exposures would be over exposed. He also noted that this is a pattern that he has seen on a number of thread mount Leicas. He added that this happens because the thread mount Leicas have weaker shutter springs than the M series cameras.

I have been a photographer developing film for 50 years but I am a recent newcomer to Leicas. I wanted to get a Leica thread mount camera to experience the Barnack camera system that started 35mm photography. I also shoot LF, so I am accustomed to and enjoy full manual operation of a camera.

Is this a commonly known weakness of the design, a problem that is not repairable, and one that is well known among long-time users of Barnack cameras?

John near Seattle

 

[kb244]

Does it happen again if you leave the camera unused for several hours, resulting in the "first two" happening again from that shot?

I don't know if it would be normal exactly, all my other cameras from the 50s don't do that, certainly not my Canon or FSU Fed-2A (Which has a top speed of 1/500, not 1/1,000th). I would expect a Leica to outperform either in reliability when properly CLA'd.

So I'm usually pretty skeptical when any repairman uses "of this age" as an excuse as I've seen the same said of someone who didn't properly restore a fountain pen, and it leaked all the time and they used that excuse when my pens from 1910s, 1920s, etc for example do not leak or overflow when properly restored.

But no, I don't have any direct experience with a IIIf just similar cameras of similar age don't seem to be a common trait, and using that excuse has always irked me.

 

[onre]

Not normal with any camera of this type.

 

[jimjm]

That's never been a problem with my IIIF, after a number of years shooting with it. I've never heard that this was characteristic of any Leica camera that was correctly adjusted and serviced.

I'd contact Youxin Ye, and send it to him if it does need service.

 

[tessar]

I'm with jimjm. My IIIf had capping problems, so I had a CLA done by Leica Canada (shows my age). The shutter has worked fine since then, and that's been quite a few years.

 

[js98367]

I forgot to mention in my original post that when I first purchased the IIIf three weeks ago, I specifically tested the camera at 1/1000 and 1/500 looking for shutter capping issues. There were no problems. Each exposure was consistent from edge to edge. It was on that first roll of film that I noticed light leaks on my negatives and upon closer inspection discovered that one of the curtains was very dry and had cracks in the rubber coating that were the source of the leaks. I sent the camera in for repair with shutter springs that were strong enough to handle the curtains at high speeds. How could the springs lose their strength in a matter of one week? I think this is a matter of improper shutter adjustment. Would you agree? Is there something else that I am not aware of that could explain this loss of high shutter speed curtain synchronization?

John near Seattle

 

[js98367]

Does it happen again if you leave the camera unused for several hours, resulting in the "first two" happening again from that shot?

kb244,

I just finished developing a roll of film and examined the negatives.

I shot two four-shot sequences, two hours apart as you suggested.

Yes, the first two negatives in each four shot sequence repeatedly showed shutter capping. The following two were fine.

What conclusions can you draw from these results?

John near Seattle

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Do you leave the shutter wound?

 

[js98367]

Do you leave the shutter wound?

No. Unless I am actively shooting I always leave springs and mechanisms untensioned to enhance their mechanical reliability and ultimately their lifespan.

 

[kb244]

I'm not that experienced in repairs, but if I had to make a guess I would say it's a sticky shutter in need of repair and lubrication. It gets unstuck after freed up by two runs of the curtains, but stuck again once the old lubrication or 'muck' hardens up from inactivity.

I'm just a user, but that doesn't sound like the trait of a camera that was just professionally CLA'd since cleaning and lubrication is a part of that process.

 

[onre]

Leaving shutter wound or not does not make any difference. This is caused by sticking lubricants. CLA time.

 

[kb244]

No. Unless I am actively shooting I always leave springs and mechanisms untensioned to enhance their mechanical reliability and ultimately their lifespan.

I've oddly heard the opposite... I just can't remember where I heard it (ie usually keeping it cocked in one of the slow speeds if storing for a while)

But either way it shouldn't matter with an issue that shows consistently between each brief shooting sessions. (I suspect if it was left wound, it would still present itself, least on the second shot of the new session)

Leaving shutter wound or not does not make any difference. This is caused by sticking lubricants. CLA time.

He had it CLA'd and with the shutter curtains replaced. I wonder if the just replaced the curtains but didn't bother to clean and lubricate it. (if that's the case, then claiming some cameras that age do that, is even more appalling).

 

[onre]

No. Unless I am actively shooting I always leave springs and mechanisms untensioned to enhance their mechanical reliability and ultimately their lifespan.

Springs do not wear from being left in a wound state, they wear while being wound and unwound.

 

[onre]

He had it CLA'd and with the shutter curtains replaced. I wonder if the just replaced the curtains but didn't bother to clean and lubricate it. (if that's the case, then claiming some cameras that age do that, is even more appalling).

Still, unfortunately, CLA time, because in Leica III it's not possible to clean and lubricate the curtain roller assemblies without considerable dismantling.

Being a camera technician myself, I find the claim "normal for a camera of this age" to be what you Americans call "bullshit" Even Soviet FEDs and Zorki's do not do anything like this on any speed when properly CLA'd.

 

[Dali]

If it occurs since the curtains were changed, it means that the new ones are not correctly tensioned regardless the number of exposure.

The answer you got from the technician ("normal for a camera of this age") is pretty odd.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

No, it is not normal. Not for Leica, not for Zorki. Not for any camera with similar shutter.

 

[John Koehrer]

I just had my Leica IIIf CLA'd and the shutter curtains replaced.

I immediately communicated my findings to the popular and respected shop that did the work and the technician responded quickly saying that this is "normal for a camera of this age". He explained that he could adjust the tension to correct the first two exposures, but that subsequent high speed exposures would be over exposed. He also noted that this is a pattern that he has seen on a number of thread mount Leicas. He added that this happens because the thread mount Leicas have weaker shutter springs than the M series cameras.

John near Seattle

Ahem! I too, would call BULLSHIT!
In addition, if it was taken down far enough to replace curtains, it
was certainly taken down far enough to fully lubricate anything else in the camera.

 

[guangong]

I have several IIIas, a IIIc and a IIIf. The first group are from 1936 and are still reliable shooters. The f works perfectly. The c has curtain bounce and needs service. How long springs last also has to do with the quality of the spring. Leica and Contax springs are high quality. Springs in pistol magazines and cocked guns seem to last forever. I agree that the OP's experts were handing out BS. We are entering a period of time where even the experts are often too young to have had real experience with a wide variety of cameras.

 

[onre]

We are entering a period of time where even the experts are often too young to have had real experience with a wide variety of cameras.

On the other hand, age has nothing to do with basic understanding of mechanical concepts. If one understands how a Leica-style curtain shutter works, he can easily figure out whether or not this kind of malfunction is normal.

 

[summicron1]

this is not a question of shutter tension -- the shutter brake needs to be adjusted -- it is not stopping the second curtain properly, causing it to bounce a bit, or even stop too soon, thus leaving a slight band of overexposure on the edge of the negative.

This is why it shows up after the camera has set for a while, and goes away after two shots. The second curtain hammers the brake back into place in those first two shots. It tightens up again as the camera sits, and when you start shooting you need to wake it up again.

I had this issue with an M3 -- I could open the back and see the band when firing the shutter -- that DAG finally made go away with good adjustment, and either he or Youxin Ye can do this camera easily and at minimal cost if this is all it needs.

Whoever did the service needs to learn how to adjust shutter brakes on leicas.

 

[John Koehrer]

I've also used Youxin for a IIIG his work was great, economical and fast. Only took about three weeks total time.

 

[js98367]

I ran another roll of film. The shutter capping has gotten worse. Instead of just 5mm of clear film, now half of the first two frames are virtually clear film. The third and fourth frames seem to be OK. There has to be something seriously wrong to see such a dramatic escalation of the problem.

John near Seattle

 

[kb244]

I ran another roll of film. The shutter capping has gotten worse. Instead of just 5mm of clear film, now half of the first two frames are virtually clear film. The third and fourth frames seem to be OK. There has to be something seriously wrong to see such a dramatic escalation of the problem.

John near Seattle

Whatever it was adjusted with, or 'left' in it may thicken over time, since you noted the problem comes back even after a couple hours of rest, and then worse as even more time goes on.

I'd be inclined to call the repairman on it, and if he won't do anything about it, send it off to someone more reputable and send him the bill.

 

[elcabezagrande]

Was it cold outside? Pre-CLA, my IIIC would do exactly the same thing in cold weather, the non-ball-bearing shutters do not play well in the cold with old lubricants. Perhaps your tech left out the "Lube" part of the process.

 

[js98367]

RESOLUTION: I had some good communication with the technician who did the original repair. He took the camera back, essentially did the whole job over again, and now it is working within spec after running 4 rolls of home-developed B&W film. Thanks for your help.

John near Seattle