Leica MP Shutter Issue

[Saganich]

This was a roll I shot last week which had neat vertical lines across the entire roll. Nothing bleeding in to the rebate so clearly a shutter issue. The previous roll was fine, the next roll shot same place same day had lines only on last 10 frames. The next roll was fine. I checked for leaks with the shutter in every position including mid frame, I checked the end caps, obvious damage, and debris. Nothing. So, the question is what fits the phenomena? How could the shutter do that? Both curtains would have to freeze in place and sometimes twice in one frame?...That's what confused me the most, the frames with two lines. Research took me to an explanation as follows: "(If) you shoot until the very last frame, such that the wind lever locks (there maybe) a tiny space between the curtains, if you rewind with the lens cap off, you will have bars of light where you momentarily stop during the rewinding process." I bulk load, and so never know where my last frame is, so I do this literally to every roll of film I shoot so I'm a little skeptical of this explanation. However it fits the phenomenon quite well so maybe there is something to it so I attempted to recreate this on the last roll I shot. I hit the last frame and the advance stopped mid-frame. I then rewound the film pausing on purpose at exaggerated small intervals in full afternoon light. I took out the film and inspected the the shutter, which was in mid frame, and all seemed fine. I developed the film and no lines, perfect roll. OK, the only thing I can think of is that this occurs when you hit the advance hard on the last frame, which I may have done, to cause a separation in the curtains. Is this plausible? I'll eventually reluctantly test this further but was wondering if anyone can confirm any of this.

 

[reddesert]

I don't buy the "explanation" you found either. If there were a small gap left open in the shutter, open during the entire rewind, it would fog the entire film as you rewound it. Even if the gap were tiny, so that it only fully blackened the film when you paused, it should be leaving some extra exposure on the entire film including between the frames. Also, it seems to happen more often than I would expect for rewind pauses (you probably don't often pause twice in the space of one frame).

It could be that your shutter is sometimes failing to cap during the shutter cocking phase, so that as you cock the shutter and the film is wound, the curtain gap comes open for a moment and exposes whatever area of film is momentarily behind it.

 

[Renato Tonelli]

I had this problem on several consecutively exposed rolls with an M6. The line/bar appeared almost mid-frame. After I realized that this was happening, I had the camera checked but he was unable to duplicate the problem; he suspected that the shutter was not tensioned 'just so' (his words).
In any case, it never happened again with dozens upon dozens of rolls and eventually sold the camera and got an M2.

 

[Saganich]

I don't buy the "explanation" you found either. If there were a small gap left open in the shutter, open during the entire rewind, it would fog the entire film as you rewound it. Even if the gap were tiny, so that it only fully blackened the film when you paused, it should be leaving some extra exposure on the entire film including between the frames. Also, it seems to happen more often than I would expect for rewind pauses (you probably don't often pause twice in the space of one frame).

It could be that your shutter is sometimes failing to cap during the shutter cocking phase, so that as you cock the shutter and the film is wound, the curtain gap comes open for a moment and exposes whatever area of film is momentarily behind it.

Yea, I had the same thought, that the frames should show some additional exposure, but that isn't obvious, so I agree may not be on the rewind. I didn't think about cocking the shutter, that fits as well, and I sometimes cock the shutter like my DS which may explain two lines on one frame. Well it's been nearly 6 years and about 400 rolls since my last CLA, I guess its time. I just don't like an unsolved mystery, LOL.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Yea, I had the same thought, that the frames should show some additional exposure, but that isn't obvious, so I agree may not be on the rewind. I didn't think about cocking the shutter, that fits as well, and I sometimes cock the shutter like my DS which may explain two lines on one frame. Well it's been nearly 6 years and about 400 rolls since my last CLA, I guess its time. I just don't like an unsolved mystery, LOL.

While six years is not a long time between CLAs, a checkup to just address the problems that the repair person finds will correct the problem and a full CLA might not be needed. If a full CLA is needed, the have it done. Ask before you send the camera out. A quick telephone call ahead of time may help you make the decision.

 

[Saganich]

While six years is not a long time between CLAs, a checkup to just address the problems that the repair person finds will correct the problem and a full CLA might not be needed. If a full CLA is needed, the have it done. Ask before you send the camera out. A quick telephone call ahead of time may help you make the decision.

Thanks Sirius, Agreed. I'm gonna shoot it awhile longer and see if it becomes more persistent before I do anything. This MP has been through hell since I bought it in 2003.

 

[250swb]

. Well it's been nearly 6 years and about 400 rolls since my last CLA, I guess its time. I just don't like an unsolved mystery, LOL.

So who did your last CLA? It should be twenty years before you need another. I know the knee jerk reaction on camera forums is to blithely say 'it needs a CLA', because it's a throw away remark, but it should be an exceptional event and not like taking your car for a service once a year. My MP was made in 2002 and it's never needed a CLA (fingers crossed), so the 400 rolls you quote before it needing another CLA is pathetic.

 

[awty]

So without film or lens and the back open did you shine a light through to see if there is any shutter issues?
Such a thin line is weird, especially two to a frame.

 

[Saganich]

So without film or lens and the back open did you shine a light through to see if there is any shutter issues?
Such a thin line is weird, especially two to a frame.

I know right. I checked for leaks, especially mid advance, but nothing. I used a pretty powerful LED flashlight in pitch dark so I think I would see a gap if it were there. The test roll was fine as well. I'm sure there are reasons a small gap in the curtains could manifest...I don't know enough about the mechanism to speculate that much.