Leica M7 a la carte arrived yesterday!

2F/2F · Jul 2, 2011

Hi, Adam,

You really have nothing to apologize for. I wasn't offended, and your comments were not out of line. But I appreciate it anyhow.

IME, photography attracts all persuasions of people. In any art, you have to expect that there will be many people involved in making social commentary – and people whose views are primarily socially and environmentally rooted, rather than individually rooted. This is not to say that photography is by definition an art, but it certainly is used artistically by many people. Some art will always be simply aesthetic, and other art will always be political/social. If photography attracted only left-wing loons or only right-wing cranks, there is no way I would be able to stand it. But, as I see it, it attracts a great variety of folks. This adds to my enjoyment of it.

I am not a communist, by the way. History has shown that this only works well in small societies ("communes," you might say ). There is no way that it makes any sense to me on a national scale; you cannot get everyone on the same page enough to prevent totalitarianism from being practiced to keep order, and human greed always pervades and perverts. I am in some ways socialist, and in some ways libertarian. I vote for candidates from various parties, but I hope that one day after I am long gone, political parties (and nations, for that matter) are eliminated completely. Though I must admit that I do think unchecked and rampant capitalism (in which powerful corporations and individuals end up determining political policy, as opposed to the general populace – hardly a "democracy") and, even more importantly, the fact that capitalism-rooted beliefs have become a system of values for personal life are some of the best ways we have invented to drive humanity and the Earth straight into oblivion, and quickly.

mhcfires · Jul 2, 2011

@2F: Hurrah! I love the sarcasm. I don't live in LA anymore. Having seen Red Ferraris on the freeway in rush hour, I appreciate your humor. I remember getting in trouble at work for my pointed sarcasm. I was "counseled" more than once, finally, I lost my job due to illness- my bosses got sick of me. Some people forget It is much better to be pissed off than pissed on.

Have a happy and safe Fourth of July Holiday.

m

Tony Egan · Jul 2, 2011

adam h said:
Who said Americans don't understand irony?

In a post boasting American exceptionalism the author drives a German BMW in response to an original post about a luxury German camera being compared to a fine Italian sports car on a site where 80% of members would be using Japanese cameras? Meanwhile, the Chinese now own most of your government bonds.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jul 2, 2011

And the minimum wage 2.5 dollar per hour in america. Try to buy a BMW or Leica with this money.

segedi · Jul 2, 2011

Wow, I would close this thread, but I find its staying power humorous. Keep it up guys

adam h · Jul 3, 2011

Tony Egan said:
In a post boasting American exceptionalism the author drives a German BMW in response to an original post about a luxury German camera being compared to a fine Italian sports car on a site where 80% of members would be using Japanese cameras? Meanwhile, the Chinese now own most of your government bonds.

I refer to American exceptionalism, only in terms of the freedoms it affords. It's not meant to imply arrogance.

Jeff Kubach · Jul 3, 2011

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
And the minimum wage 2.5 dollar per hour in america. Try to buy a BMW or Leica with this money.

I've had bought several!

Jeff

lxdude · Jul 3, 2011

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
And the minimum wage 2.5 dollar per hour in america. Try to buy a BMW or Leica with this money.

Actually, the minimum wage set by the US government is $7.25 per hour. Several states mandate a higher minimum wage. In California, where I live, it's $8/hour. Some mandate more than California, some less.
California also has stricter rules about pay for overtime work.

It's still not BMW or Leica money, certainly.

Diapositivo · Jul 3, 2011

I read post #89 as a serious one. I'm not sure I was wrong

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jul 3, 2011

If you want to read serious posts , subscribe to Time , We are not philosophers , economists whatever.

By the time , I think nobody cares what US goverment rules. My boss had 10 gas stations at New York and elected as Number 1 Gas Seller of the year by AMACO , He was paying 5 dollars per hour.

I had been bought Nantucket Travel Guide book and it clearly states workers are having hard times to find a job even 1 dollar per hour at tourism season !

Greece is advertising itself one of the richest countries in the world and people at Athens were burning tires because % 25 of the population is earning 300 euros per month. This is 25 times better than Africa also.

My goverment advertises for 10 years , they broke the world development record with %11 per year and people minimum earns 20000 dollar per year and I earn 13000.

Diapositivo · Jul 3, 2011

To compare oranges with oranges one must compare the same quantity:

- Net hourly wage;
- Gross hourly wage;
- Gross hourly labour cost;

Those are three different things.

A person might earn €16000/year net, he actually earns €26000 gross, and in fact the firms employing him has a labour cost of €32000/year.

net = what the worker "touches".
gross = net + taxes + mandatory employee's contributions to pension plans, mandatory insurance etc.;
labour cost = gross + mandatory employer's contributions to pension plans, insurance etc..

In countries like the US the difference between the three quantity is not so big as in other countries. Taxation level is lower, but insurance levels are also lower.
In Italy and in other countries a great amount of the gross wage is withheld by the employer who then pays this withheld amount to the fiscal administration (taxes) and to the various mandatory insurance agencies (INPS for pension plans, INAIL for work accidents typically).
Besides, the employer must add mandatory contributions to INPS and INAIL (those are not in the "gross" wage of the worker, but do go to his benefit and do cost) that are typically twice the employee's contribution, and so the labour cost is higher than the gross wage by a good amount.

That's why yearly income pro capite are not comparable between countries. Reading statistics, US citizens might appear among the richest of the planet, but with that "income" they have to pay for health insurance, school, University etc. while in other countries you appear to earn less, but you have free health care, cheap school, "cheap" University etc.

sandholm · Jul 3, 2011

adam h said:
I refer to American exceptionalism, only in terms of the freedoms it affords. It's not meant to imply arrogance.

You must be kidding with me, stop watching fox news and believe that they are real news.

The US has a democracy (freedome) index of 8.18, which is on place 16, just imagen that Czech Republic is ABOVE you on place 15. So please, and also remember you became a democracy first 1965....

have a nice day

(ps when it comes to socialism and capitalism you need to study your info more, NOTHING says that you cant be a socialist and capitalist at the same time, socialism means that you live in a human society which gives people the same rights and chances and also make sure that there is a safety net if something happens. In a human society you dont force people to commit bank robbery just to get health care. Geneva and Zurich, two of the major capitalism cities with many banks and trading companies are both socialist run, please if you make this kind of statement you do go back and study your high school books. Actually you can be right and not like capitalism)

Tony Egan · Jul 3, 2011

adam h said:
I refer to American exceptionalism, only in terms of the freedoms it affords. It's not meant to imply arrogance.

OK, youve been a good sport to put up with my sarcasm.

I think the conditions still exist for America to drive innovations and create the next big things and I hope it comes through as many of the assets in my pension fund are US stocks!

However, I dont think the simplistic anti-left sloganeering in your first post is helping the cause. And, I dont want you trying to convert any of the left-wingers on APUG because they make better pictures and are more fun to be around than the right-wingers

American Exceptionalism is interesting term which seems over time to have attracted a variety of meanings and adherents (including the American Communist Party) since it was coined. Lately it seems to have been appropriated by the right, infused with religious overtones and is being used as yet another slogan to prove they know best how to make America strong again. If only believing in freedom would solve all our problems!

Its almost July 4 down here and I have to go to work for my US capitalist master on Monday. I hope you enjoy your holiday!

Tony Egan · Jul 3, 2011

sandholm said:
The US has a democracy (freedome) index of 8.18, which is on place 16, just imagen that Czech Republic is ABOVE you on place 15. So please, and also remember you became a democracy first 1965....

Although Czech Republic doesn't do so well on the Corruption Perception Index.
http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2009/cpi_2009_table

Bloody New Zealand. It's bad enough they beat us at rugby but now they're better at honesty and integrity as well. Good to know we can trust where APUG is run from!

adam h · Jul 3, 2011

sandholm said:
You must be kidding with me, stop watching fox news and believe that they are real news.

The US has a democracy (freedome) index of 8.18, which is on place 16, just imagen that Czech Republic is ABOVE you on place 15. So please, and also remember you became a democracy first 1965....

have a nice day

(ps when it comes to socialism and capitalism you need to study your info more, NOTHING says that you cant be a socialist and capitalist at the same time, socialism means that you live in a human society which gives people the same rights and chances and also make sure that there is a safety net if something happens. In a human society you dont force people to commit bank robbery just to get health care. Geneva and Zurich, two of the major capitalism cities with many banks and trading companies are both socialist run, please if you make this kind of statement you do go back and study your high school books. Actually you can be right and not like capitalism)

If the "free health care" one receives in many socialist countries is so wonderful, why is it that so many people come to the United States for life-saving surgeries by top specialists? Why not just have the surgeries or treatments in their home countries? Why are lines so long, and quality relatively poor? Rationing?

Why do millions of people comitt the CRIME of sneaking through our "porous" border, to come to this country? Comparatively speaking, how many people WANT to sneak into China, North Korea, Luxembourg. I mean who sneaks INTO Mexico? How many people have YOU heard of crammed into a fishing boat in Miami and risked their lives to float to CUBA? To "sneak" into CUBA?????? Let me see.......ummmmmmm, like....NONE! Maybe, there's a reason????
Have a good day.

adam h · Jul 3, 2011

sandholm said:
You must be kidding with me, stop watching fox news and believe that they are real news.

The US has a democracy (freedome) index of 8.18, which is on place 16, just imagen that Czech Republic is ABOVE you on place 15. So please, and also remember you became a democracy first 1965....

have a nice day

(ps when it comes to socialism and capitalism you need to study your info more, NOTHING says that you cant be a socialist and capitalist at the same time, socialism means that you live in a human society which gives people the same rights and chances and also make sure that there is a safety net if something happens. In a human society you dont force people to commit bank robbery just to get health care. Geneva and Zurich, two of the major capitalism cities with many banks and trading companies are both socialist run, please if you make this kind of statement you do go back and study your high school books. Actually you can be right and not like capitalism)

FOX is 19% owned by a Saudi. FOX is about as conservative as CNN or MSNBC, if you ask me. Try Newsmax.com for real news, btw. With all due respect (bc my initial post mentioning American Exceptionalism was NOT meant to give off a tone of arrogance,) do you agree with me that equal rights means equal opportunities to succeed, not equal outcomes? To me, THAT distinction is the most important one to me. I want the right to have an opportunity to create any kind of life I want; I DON'T want my government to be large, and I DON'T want it to guarantee
that I will succeed by taking money from others in my country through higher taxation. i want to succeed or fail on my own, without government interference. Do you disagree with that thinking? I intend no animosity, here, I'm just curious to see how others think.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jul 3, 2011

i want to succeed or fail on my own

Dont you want some help ?

How will you create equal oppurtinity to poor or jobless people , RAMBO ?

mhcfires · Jul 3, 2011

I think I will stick to my Leica M2.

adam h · Jul 3, 2011

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
Dont you want some help ?

How will you create equal oppurtinity to poor or jobless people , RAMBO ?

I believe the US should have SOME sort of safety net (like welfare,) for people who TRULY need it. Like people who become ill, physically or mentally, and truly cannot work, or people who lose their jobs (it's called unemployment benefits, here however, in both cases, I think it need to be LIMITED in time and scope (not the mouthwash ) The problem in the US, as I see it, is that welfare recipients can receive benefits, until they die (figuratively,) and we keep extending jobless benefits, longer and longer, to the point that we're becoming a WELFARE STATE. What motivation will people have to work and create wealth, when the govt, here, just takes care of your needs from the "cradle to the grave." Who's going to pay for the welfare recipient who gets on welfare, here, and has 10 more kids. I'M paying for it through higher taxes, and all hard working Americans pay for it. I think we should limit welfare to like 2 years.
To answer your question, in my opinion IT IS NOT THE GOVERNMENT'S JOB TO CREATE JOBS FOR IT'S CITIZENS. THE PRIVATE SECTOR CREATES THE JOBS, and a SMALL government is there to provide basic services, like police, fire, military, etc.......and then GET OUT OF THE WAY. STOP relgualating business, as much as they currently do. Remove the reg and jobs WILL be created. Stop worrying about some insect becoming extinct in Alaska, and start drilling for oil. How is it China can drill off the Florida coast for oil, and the US cannot.!!!!!!!!!???%^$

adam h · Jul 3, 2011

You know, I apologize. This is a photography forum, not a political forum. I'll refrain from going in that direction, and stick to photography.

Diapositivo · Jul 3, 2011

Healthcare "tourism" is actually quite flourishing in India and Thailand, but I have no figures to compare it with the US. It is probably fuelled by people coming from the US or other countries where health care is expensive. If money is no object, the US can certainly offer high quality health care, which rich foreigners can afford, and poor Americans cannot. The luckier of them can afford going to India or Thailand, though, but not all of them. The fact that people go for healthcare in the US is not a demonstration that the US health care system is "better" only that it caters better for a certain (generally speaking rich) slice of the world population.

There certainly are more people this year who died trying to reach Italy than trying to reach the US. If Mexico had a border with North Africa, African people would "sneak" to Mexico as well, or Cuba. Actually one of the countries with the highest percentage presence of clandestine people is probably Libya (before the civil war, at least). People "sneak" where they can. Mexicans would probably choose to be clandestine in Sweden, Germany or Switzerland, but they only have the US where to sneak in.

Billionaires and head of governments, such as Maradona and Hugo Chavez, chose to be cured in Cuba which says a lot about the high level of health care in that communist country. Nobody risks his life to make a political statement. If Cuba had not been at the top of health care, Chavez could have gone to Spain, Switzerland or Japan without any political problem.

If the US were as small as Cuba, and Cuba were as big as the US, and Cuba had made a decades-old embargo against the US bullying all neighbouring countries not to trade with the US, you would bet US citizens would take boats to reach Cuba.

Mustafa Umut Sarac · Jul 3, 2011

Job is Job , I dont become sad if the gov builds or owns the factory. A lots of people are using Soviet goods , a cinema lens cost them 700 but a american cinema lens cost 10000 or more.
You are still wearing Chinese goods and depend on the money China will give you.
If China can feed 1 500 000 000 people with this method , I think they do good business.
At next 10 years , China will graduate 100 million new university students And their population will reach to 2 billion in next 20 years. And USA have 250 million population. You will not be able to write big letters for big expectations at future. And Russia have two times more researchers than usa , they went to space first with their gov built rockets.
I think you must look at to the world with bigger perspective RAMBO

JMcLaug351 · Jul 3, 2011

segedi, do us all a favor and close it. It is now way off topic and getting very personal. This is not so good for analog photography or APUG.
JOHN

adam h · Jul 3, 2011

Diapositivo said:
Healthcare "tourism" is actually quite flourishing in India and Thailand, but I have no figures to compare it with the US. It is probably fuelled by people coming from the US or other countries where health care is expensive. If money is no object, the US can certainly offer high quality health care, which rich foreigners can afford, and poor Americans cannot. The luckier of them can afford going to India or Thailand, though, but not all of them. The fact that people go for healthcare in the US is not a demonstration that the US health care system is "better" only that it caters better for a certain (generally speaking rich) slice of the world population.

There certainly are more people this year who died trying to reach Italy than trying to reach the US. If Mexico had a border with North Africa, African people would "sneak" to Mexico as well, or Cuba. Actually one of the countries with the highest percentage presence of clandestine people is probably Libya (before the civil war, at least). People "sneak" where they can. Mexicans would probably choose to be clandestine in Sweden, Germany or Switzerland, but they only have the US where to sneak in.

Billionaires and head of governments, such as Maradona and Hugo Chavez, chose to be cured in Cuba which says a lot about the high level of health care in that communist country. Nobody risks his life to make a political statement. If Cuba had not been at the top of health care, Chavez could have gone to Spain, Switzerland or Japan without any political problem.

If the US were as small as Cuba, and Cuba were as big as the US, and Cuba had made a decades-old embargo against the US bullying all neighbouring countries not to trade with the US, you would bet US citizens would take boats to reach Cuba.

If I understand you, correctly, you're saying that freedom and liberty are not the prime motivating factos, behind Cubans fleeing to the US. You don't see Castro as a tyrannical dictator??????????????????????????????????????????????????

adam h · Jul 3, 2011

Mustafa Umut Sarac said:
Job is Job , I dont become sad if the gov builds or owns the factory. A lots of people are using Soviet goods , a cinema lens cost them 700 but a american cinema lens cost 10000 or more.
You are still wearing Chinese goods and depend on the money China will give you.
If China can feed 1 500 000 000 people with this method , I think they do good business.
At next 10 years , China will graduate 100 million new university students And their population will reach to 2 billion in next 20 years. And USA have 250 million population. You will not be able to write big letters for big expectations at future. And Russia have two times more researchers than usa , they went to space first with their gov built rockets.
I think you must look at to the world with bigger perspective RAMBO

Unless I'm mistaken, I don't hear you or anyone else on this forum, who has entered into this particular discussion, mention political freedoms, as something of value. Why is that? Everyone is quick to crtiicize or mock the US, and simultaneously give a "pat on the back" to DICTATORSHIPS, like China and Cuba. Way to go China! Way to go Cuba!! No one, here, places importance on the fact that these countries are run by communists, who don't care one iota about freedom and liberty of their citizens. The left loves to champion the cause of the "little guy" or the "poor." No one, though, seems to hold liberty as a virtue to hold up, as a yardstick. The US is not perfect, even on the issue of personal liberty; however, please name one country, especially one communist country, where citizens' liberties are protected, as they are, here. If I'm wrong, I stand corrected. Maybe, though, these virtues are not virtues, elsewhere in the world.

Leica M7 a la carte arrived yesterday!

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