Leica M5 - the only flaws to the greatest film kamera ever..

NB23

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Huss said:
A motor winder that kicks back through the shutter button shaking the camera is about as inelegant as you can get.
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imagine, you would retain all the kickback and shaking and you would add that thing on top of it all, thus a step further down.

The current design is the best that can be done. The modifications would need to be made on the M cameras, not on the winder,but that would mean the end of M cameras as we know them.

As it is, that poor winder all it is doing is working around the constrains of the M cameras.
 

NB23

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Actually, Leica has improved on a lot of fronts. Leica T, Q, S, SL... The M line is just one of many. And it’s a good thing that Leica customers didn’t let Leica change the M line.

It is us, after all, who saved Leica from Leica! Look at where the Leica M line was going with this prototype M6. Had they gone that route, we wouldn’t have what we have now. Frankly, the photo world needs M cameras to never change. There’s plenty other alternatives for who wants it. The Fuji line, the Ricoh, the various Leica Q T S Digital M...

I think that the problem is in our perception of things. The Leica M line is forever 20. I would like to be forever 20. It is an error we make to give it an age. As far as I’m concerned, the Leica M line stopped aging 50 years ago, unlike us!










Patrick Robert James said:
Heaven forbid Leica would actually improve on their 70 year old design. Lol.
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Huss

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Patrick Robert James said:
Heaven forbid Leica would actually improve on their 70 year old design. Lol.
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I'd have zero issues putting money down on a Leica M7n - with improved electronics, a shutter that goes to 1/4000 sec, and a motor winder that behaves as a motor winder should.
This would require a re-design. Oh noes!!!!

Keep the M-A/MP as is. Fits the design brief. But an AE Leica should offer more than just AE to stand out from the mechanical ones. Which is why the M7 was discontinued. Most people saw on paper very similar specs - shutter that 'only' goes to 1/1000. And AE. But w/ a really crappy DX system and bizarro viewfinder LED light display which had the user try to decipher what was wrong. Blinking LED because low battery? Or DX malfunction? Or not using DX film? Or because you want to manually set the film speed? All illustrated by one stupid little red blinking LED... Almost as elegant a design as a recoiling motor winder!

The M7n does not have to look much different from the current design. Just bring it up to spec with film cameras from 35 years ago... Hint - Nikon FE2.
Yes it will have a metal shutter - but Leica already has been using those for years in their M digicams and peeps love those. So instead of Leica M10 being a copy of the Leica M6 (?), how about the M7n being a copy of the M10?!!
 
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Huss

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No issue with that for the mechanical Ms. Just spent yesterday absolutely loving using my M3. I even like the way the film loads! As a mechanical camera, Ms are awesome.
But as an AE camera? Leica could really do an update instead of cancelling the M7.
 

NB23

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Yes, as long as the MP/MA are on tge market, an updated M7 could be produced alongside them. I think it is very important to keep the MP/MA. Those cameras have no age. They are timeless.

In that regard, the M7 could benefit learning from the Zeiss ikon M. It would involve an electronic shutter, an electronic redesign, a better vf, a much better AE/Lock button with a 10 seconds memory... It would be a great seller. But only alongside a proper mechanical M. otherwise it would be a too big departure from the core.
The core is important, it is what saved Leica from Leica. As simple as that.
 

reddesert

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IMO, this motor winder issue seems to be an example of Leica being boxed in by its customer base and perhaps its engineering tendencies. I've never used these cameras, but think it's a little elaborate to want electronically controlled auto exposure to be compatible with a mechanically controlled electrically driven winder, while at the same time preserving winder backward compatibility with previous mechanical cameras.

There are mechanical shutter cameras that work with an electronically controlled motor drive (I have one), but the drive interface uses an electronic contact. Leica could have designed an M7 and motor that worked together seamlessly but sacrificed motor compatibility with the previous cameras, or perhaps even designed a motor drive that used either mechanical or electronic triggering to preserve compatibility. That sounds a little Rube Goldberg, but perhaps no more so than asking two electronic devices to communicate through a mechanical connection. You'd have to ask the oracle of Wetzlar why they did it their way.
 

250swb

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There is nothing wrong with the Leica M Motorwinder and it's kickback if you are a professional and it's all you have to keep up with the Nikon users sat next to you. It is however appalling for a dilettante who's nerves are shot by using it. This should give a clue for who this compromised half-arsed design is meant for, it works, sort of.
 
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Huss

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A 2fps motor winder is not exactly professional grade gear. And those pro Nikon winders could not only advance the film at 5fps with no recoil, but also rewind it. That Leica winder wasn't keeping up w any Nikon users.
 

NB23

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Can I share a secret with you guys? I own 8 Leica winders. They were like 10-20$ each. And when you need a winder, they do the job. Some are really loud... but all in all they’re ok.
 
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Huss

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I read somewhere - and it was a legit Leica source but I wish I could place it - that the steel geared Leicas (M4-2/P etc) were better built to withstand the use of the winders. Apparently there were some reports of the later stuff (including M7s) that could have mechanical issues if used extensively with the winders. I'm sure there a lots of peeps out there that have been using them forever w/ no issues, but it made me pay attention. Pretty much as one more reason not to use it on my later gear.
Man, I wish I could find that source. Score one for steel vs brass gears.
 

NB23

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Yes, the winder is tough on gears. Originally made for the M4-2/P’s steel gears. Comon Leica knowledge.
The way to use the winder is to always switch it off, never leave it on. The swotch is so well placed, though, that it becomes a partnof the shooting routine. I use it on and off constantly within a riol of film, depending where I am. I don’t mind the extra base length, it gives proper counter balance.
The newer “Motor” is not dangerous for brass gears. It has a refined sensor that makes it stop pushing when there is a counter force, when the camera is cocked.
 

Pieter12

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Since this thread is about the unmatched M5, it strikes me as ironic and hypocritical to read complaints about the size of the M5 and then read about using winders on the other M cameras.
 

250swb

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Huss said:
A 2fps motor winder is not exactly professional grade gear. And those pro Nikon winders could not only advance the film at 5fps with no recoil, but also rewind it. That Leica winder wasn't keeping up w any Nikon users.
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So you imagine that 5 fps beats 2 fps because by default as soon as somebody has a motordrive they don't take their finger off the button? In the real world, and not expertly reading spec sheets after the fact, Press photographers would mostly use a motordrive for making individual shots but in anticipation that the next could come before they'd been able to manually wind on, not because the next shot would come before they wound on. In a 'hot' situation film was still respected because changing a roll may take 30 seconds. And lets now face the inevitable exception, if it was sports event and a sequence was needed a Press photographer would most probably be using a Nikon anyway because it had much longer lenses available.
 
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Huss

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250swb said:
... And lets now face the inevitable exception, if it was sports event and a sequence was needed a Press photographer would most probably be using a Nikon anyway because it had much longer lenses available.
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And a high capacity film back.
 

Richard Jepsen

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Ref post 68 and 94. I have my overhauled M5 from DAG in the Madison, WI metro. A current flaw to this great M mount shooter is after 48 years a battery compartment often has mercury battery corrosion. Don had to disturb my perfect vulcanite to replace the battery chamber. If buying these cameras off the auction site take care too determine the battery compartment condition and meter operation.

The unique strengths of this camera are:
1. Only metered M with proper sized 50 frame lines.
2. Only M with analog match needle display
3. Best ergonomic shutter speed dial of any M camera.

Concerning viewfinder blockage. Try a Minolta CLE 40/2. Optics just a tad behind the Summicron 35/2 type 4. No camera frame line but its not hard to look at the 50 lines and estimate the 40. Its not much less accurate than framing with the undersized 50 on a M6/MP/M7. On the M5 without glasses you have to move your eye to see the 35 frame line. Much easier and a pleasure to use to the small nice handling Minolta optic.
 
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Huss

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african_jon said:
Any recommendations for a flash with an M5?
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Pretty much any basic flash works. Auto or Manual. I've used compact ones, and bigger ones. Just make sure you set the shutter sync speed on the camera.
Back in this thread are pics of my M5 with a compact Agfa flash, and a Leica SF240D flash. I wouldn't bother with the Leica on the M5 unless you must have the matching name, because none of the advanced features can be utilized by the M5.
(those features can be used by my R7, R9 and M7)
 

Moose22

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Gotta say, Huss, if you'd used a professional film you might have gotten OK photographs.

Kidding aside, I love Kentmere so much as cheap film. I got a bunch for about what my bulk-rolled HP5 costs me. Yes, you get halos, so know that before you shoot and you're good to go. Otherwise, it's a a good film that gives great results. DX encoded rolls, too, so easy to use in automatic point and shoots without having to mess with anything.
 
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