Leica M5 - not easy to fix?

walliswizard · Jun 2, 2016

So the saga of my M5 continues. I've had it 6 months, during which it has been back to the dealer twice. Right at the end of the 6 months, and fortunately just before the warranty ended on it, the shutter broke.

The dealer has got back to me saying their normal repairer reports that the "shutter blind drum has broken". Also, he doesn't have the part can therefore can't fix it.

So they are now trying a different repairman who *may* have the part, but he is not that quick to do repairs.

Now, the camera is in warranty, this shouldn't cost me any money at this time, and I do like that M5 a lot. On the downside it's obviously a near 44 year old camera and wear and tear is showing in some of those internals. That said, when it was working, it was a wonderful camera.

Question is this. Do I keep the M5 after this has been repaired? Is the M5 one of those cameras that is difficult, and therefore (assuming it can be repaired) expensive to repair? I appreciate there is nothing "cheap" about Leica ownership, I'm just wondering if I'm better off with a different model, say an M6, or even an M2/3/4. Do these have their own little quirks that I should look out for, or are these infinitely more repairable? Should I lose sleep over the M5? Risk keeping it (after all, it will have had those fixes done to it now, so *should* be OK for the future) or sell it for a different model.

Thoughts?

hap · Jun 2, 2016

Hmmmm......I would see if you could convince the dealer to somehow give you the option of sending it out for repair, either to DAG or Sherry. At least for evaluation, at their cost....or partly. Sherry, as somewhat cantankerous as she might be, is expert at M5 repair. And will very likely have the parts. Her personal camera is an M5.

But it could be finicky anyway....another reason to have Sherry or Don look into it.

Just my .02 c.

walliswizard · Jun 2, 2016

I'm in the UK so those two probably aren't an option, but the guy they've suggested seems to have a good reputation. More worried about what I might face in future rather than right now.

gone · Jun 2, 2016

This was pretty much my Leica experience. Expensive to buy, expensive to repair, and repairs were not always correctly done (no matter who I tried or what their reputation was). So I bought a Bessa R and was very happy! Later I wanted an AE camera that took M mount lenses, so I bought a Bessa R2A. Loved it. Not the same build quality as a Leica, and the shutters of the Bessas were a little louder, but I just wanted something reliable that would not need expensive servicing later. Problem solved. Put your money into good glass not the camera, that's my motto.

Larry Bullis · Jun 2, 2016

My first Leica was an M5 with a 35mm Summilux. A dealer lent it to me, I think that must have been in 1975. I shot some event images in the dark, a dance troupe in a night club. I was so impressed with it, due to its speed and handling characteristics, that many years and several Leicas later, I bought one. When I got it, I found the shutter out of balance (exposure uneven from side to side). I sent it to DAG and it works great, except for the light meter. I didn't have Don recalibrate the meter for the alkaline, which I regret now, because, at that time, my experience with the alkaline batteries was that they changed voltage as they aged, making the exposures somewhat unreliable. I got one of those adapters for silver cells, which works when it feels like working. There's a repairman in Portland Oregon who I think I can trust to work on that. I think with the improvements in batteries in the past few years, there has to be a better way.

It would be hard for me to give up my M5. I've had 2 M2's, a iiif, an M4, and recently acquired a really nice M3 which I've been using most of the time these days, pending getting the M5's meter fixed. It's hard to say which I like the best. They all have different strengths and weaknesses. I think the M5 is a very strong camera, and probably well worth getting it fixed. It is the last fully mechanical Leica. You can set intermediate speeds. It has a great rangefinder and the light meter (if not having the problem mine has) is terrific. Yes, it's expensive. But if we're voting on whether you keep it or not I'd say you do!

walliswizard · Jun 2, 2016

I am sort of thinking that a) I do love it and b) I just need to put money away for if and when it goes wrong.

The issue seems more to be if I can get it fixed at all! I've seen a few repairers who say they can do work on all 'M's except for the M5.

I'm sure there are plenty of M5s out there that could be scavenged for parts, so I don't understand the difficulty.

ColColt · Jun 2, 2016

Sover Wong is in the UK also but he's the one I sent my F2A to for CLA. Why couldn't you send yours to DAG or Sherry in the US?

John Koehrer · Jun 2, 2016

ColColt said:
Sover Wong is in the UK also but he's the one I sent my F2A to for CLA. Why couldn't you send yours to DAG or Sherry in the US?

1) He's in the UK
2) It's a dealer warrantee repair.

cuthbert · Jun 2, 2016

I've a M5 bought for a ridiculously low price for a Leica.

Besided the lightmeter that is sophisticated and not easy to repair the rest of the camera is like any other Leica or Leica copy, so if they have problems with that you need to a more skilled tech.

Unfortunately I don't know anybody in the UK who can do the work properly, PROBABLY Red Dot Cameras but it won't be cheap. In Italy there's a Leica specialist called Castelli, you can find him on FB and he has golden hands, but I understand you might be concerned about shipping a Leica around the world.

mnemosyne · Jun 3, 2016

bowzart said:
It is the last fully mechanical Leica

Of course this is not true. The M4-2, M4-P, M6, M6-TTL and MP are all fully mechanical Leicas which came out after the M5. They will all work without batteries.

Ian Grant · Jun 3, 2016

The UK has the best Leica repair man around, Malcolm Taylor. He's the person the Leitz factory themselves used for their repairs and restorations.

Ian

walliswizard · Jun 3, 2016

I think you have missed the point of my question.

I'm worried that going forward (ie. after this repair, and when it is out of warranty) will the M5 be more trouble that its worth, seeing as it appears to be a Leica many repairers won't touch.

Malcolm is the guy my dealer is sending my Leica to for repair this time round.

darkosaric · Jun 3, 2016

Get an M6. The price of M6 are not that high, and they are usually not so worn out (every M/LTM type of Leica is good - the question is only how worn out your sample is).
Once when camera starts to break and you are not sure that is will not fail again - it is a worst camera. You go on some trip and in critical moment it will fail again. That is why I never use any Minox 35 again - they failed me in the critical moments while being away on a trip in Asia. Only M6 and nikon F/F3 are traveling with me from that incident.

Ian Grant · Jun 3, 2016

walliswizard said:
I think you have missed the point of my question.

I didn't miss you point I was pointing out if anyone can repair it Malcolm is probably the best option, so it's good to see that's who the dealer has chosen.

There's two issues, getting the M5 repaired is the first, then you need an honest opinion from Malcolm or a Leica dealer as to long term options.

It may be that you sell the repaired M5 body and replace it with a different M body, or you may be told the camera's got plenty of years in front of it. Usually when a Leica has been repaired or services by a Leitz authorised repair man it's good for many more years use.

Ian

blockend · Jun 3, 2016

Old Leicas are a gamble. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst, as they say. There's nothing about the M5 that's substantially different from earlier M models except the meter arm, and that doesn't appear to be a problem, so if someone can fix an M2 or M3 they should be able sort out your M5.

Parts are a different matter. These cameras are more than 40 years old and rely on donor bodies, mostly. I'll bet there are quite a few UK repairers who can fix your camera, but you may have to ring round to see who has parts. Have you tried Miles Whitehead? He works on all kinds of stuff.

TheToadMen · Jun 3, 2016

If possible, stick to the M5. It's a nice camera and quite different to the other M cameras - maybe that was also the point why it wasn't popular in those days when it was introduced, but technically it's a fine machine. And the rangefinder base is even wider than the regular M's.
I like mine, despite having a M4-2 and a M7 also.

Edit:
Here's some nice reading about the M5 while waiting for repairs:
http://www.japancamerahunter.com/2012/04/the-leica-m5-the-lost-leica/
and
http://www.35mmc.com/15/10/2015/leica-m5/
and
https://www.cameraquest.com/m5.htm
and
http://leicaphilia.com/the-m5-leicas-misunderstood-masterpiece-a-revisionist-history/
and
http://www.theonlinedarkroom.com/2015/01/leica-m5-brochure.html

cuthbert · Jun 3, 2016

darkosaric said:
Get an M6. The price of M6 are not that high, and they are usually not so worn out (every M/LTM type of Leica is good - the question is only how worn out your sample is).
Once when camera starts to break and you are not sure that is will not fail again - it is a worst camera. You go on some trip and in critical moment it will fail again. That is why I never use any Minox 35 again - they failed me in the critical moments while being away on a trip in Asia. Only M6 and nikon F/F3 are traveling with me from that incident.

M5 >>> M6.

Having said that a M6 is a 20+ years old camera so a CLA is quite likely. ALL mechanical cameras need servicing sooner or later and from a design point of view the M6 is not more easy to be serviced than the M5.

A mechanical camera properly serviced is definitely reliable in critical moments, IF the tech has done the job properly.

blockend said:
Have you tried Miles Whitehead? He works on all kinds of stuff.

Yes. He serviced two Canons...not impressed by his service.

During shipping they crashed the pentaprism of my F1N (hard thing to do) and he didn't inform me about the damage (nor he repaired it) and after the CLA of the FTb he didn't clean the screen properly, saying that he couldn't risk scratching it.

When I went to Italy I brought the camera to Castelli and he cleaned it perfectly, not a single spec of dust.

walliswizard · Jun 3, 2016

Well externally my M5 looks just fine, so maybe I'll wait and see what the dealer is going to do, see if Malcolm IS the person to be doing the work in the end, and ask him for an evaluation of the general internal condition of it.

The realities of Leica ownership are what they are, I guess. You buy an old car, you've got to spend the same again on restoration and maintenance, I guess its the same with these old cameras.

cuthbert · Jun 3, 2016

walliswizard said:
The realities of Leica ownership are what they are, I guess. You buy an old car, you've got to spend the same again on restoration and maintenance, I guess its the same with these old cameras.

Surely they aren't the perfect, indestructible ad 120% reliable overengineered cameras some people like to think they are.

The real reliability of a Leica screwmount is more or less the same as a Zorki 6, just most of the soviet rangefinders are so cheap that they were never a CLA in all their life. Leica are lucky and they are usually "babied" by their owners.

guangong · Jun 3, 2016

For walliswizard. The m5 that you bought must have been in mint condition. The fact is that the first batch of m5 s from leitz had a defect with the shutter roller. When leica was owned by leitz these cameras were repaired for free and whenever the camera was serviced for any reason leica would replace the shutter roller. Therefore，your m5 must have had very little use to still posess an original shutter that was not updated. Most people can buy an m5 confident that the offending part has been replaced long ago. Also，the finder is significantly brighter than leicas that followed with the advantage of not straining to see the leds in bright sunlight. I have m3 and m4s as well as barnacks and a bessa but for an internal meter the m5 is the way to go. Keep in mind that the production philosophy that governs the world since the 1970s is how to make things cheaper but continue to charge a lot of money. The m5 is a robust camera.

walliswizard · Jun 3, 2016

Hiya.

I hear you, though I don't believe my one was from the early batch. I've read somewhere about Shelley (?) recommending you buy an M5 over a certain serial number. Mine is above that serial number. It was made December 1972 I think I worked out.

Sadly I've only had the chance to run four films through it so far, and two of those came out blanker than my face when people ask me questions involving maths

It IS a lovely camera though. So, I dunno, we'll see....

sharpnikkor · Jun 4, 2016

If you like the ergonomics of the M5 then it is worth fixing. If not then fix it and sell it and move on. Or sell as is. There are a whole array of Leicas to choose from.

I happen to like the layout of the M5 with the oversize shutter speed dial overhanging the edge, the large viewfinder with the match needle metering and the industrial design look.

I have an M4 that I haven't even run any rolls through yet that now needs a shutter repair, so I know how frustrating it is when your Leica is not working properly.

Good luck with your decision and let us know how it turns out.

hap · Jun 6, 2016

I could republish here...however, please read my full commentary on my experience with the M5 on Leica Place. Even in the US , most repair shops will not take it on. I even asked my friend Gus Lazzari, a genius camera tech, and he said he could not source many of the parts. A big issue is the rf will often degrade and decement. The one I bought had that problem and I had to return it because it was difficult to focus. Leica does not source the M5 rf with its unusual frame lines anymore. You have to "upgrade" it to the the M6 RF.....minimum 300 and more like 550 with Sherry. then it is not an M5 exactly as now with 28 mm frames lines you cannot see and you lose the spot meter lines when using a 50. It's a neat camera with some very cool features.... but it's an old camera which in many ways is even more orphaned than when it was introduced.

I suggest that if you want to keep it.....suck it up and send across the pond to Sherry Krauter...someone who deeply cares for the M5 and will fix it right. It's going to cost you. Otherwise ...DAG.

cuthbert · Jun 6, 2016

As far as I know the viewfinder of the M5 is the same as the M2 and M4.

Besides the lightmeter which has a peculiar design the camera is a traditional Leica, I saw it inside.

Send it to this guy until he's still alive, he can fix it.

P.S. For for the bad pic, I still have to learn to develop Tmax properly.

hap · Jun 6, 2016

I'm not authoritative....but I discussed directly with Don Goldberg and Sherry regarding the camera as well as Gus Lazzari. The Rangefinder is different. It is absolutely different than an M2 or M4. I have an M4 and an M3. There are no replacements....except a new M6. Totally different frame set. You cannot see 28mm frame lens as obstructed by the meter. Sherry has parts so fine...then Sherry. Minimum 550. The meter arm and mechanism is complex. I have a CL and it's nothing like that even though same cell. It's not bad at all to have an M5. It's tricky. Oh..and yeah...you cannot use the MR9 adapter to use 1.5v silver oxide as the battery door will not screw down correctly. Wein cells work or mercury if you have access. 60-100 to adjust voltage from DAG.....probably a worthwhile adjustment. Plus, if you send to an expert it should get a complete once over and that's another ???$$$

Leica M5 - not easy to fix?

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