Leica M2 vs M4 vs M6 Any Real Difference in Optical Results?

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chuckroast

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All of this, of course, is only of interest to us photo nerds. The vast majority of photographs are of people (or of their lunch) wherein neither dynamic range nor resolution matter very much. If I were still shooting portraits (shudder) or weddings (double shudder), there's not question I'd be using 100% digital capture.

Although I dedicate myself with heart and soul to prints on paper, we cannot ignore the fact that the vast majority of the photos we "consume" are digital on a screen. We can also conclude that a modern high-resolution screen easily leaves a photo printed in a newspaper behind.

Yes, that's true, but that's not the benchmark. The benchmark is a traditionally printed silver print which has been the gold standard for "photographs" for over a century. If you cannot do at least that well, you're going backwards.

I am also not at all convinced that an image on an HR screen is so inferior. As some here would have us believe. I must also be very mistaken if a light-emitting screen does not have a much greater light intensity range than reflective paper. In

It does, but it does not have the dynamic range of film itself. Film is capable of holding north of 14 stops of dynamic range, albeit in a nonlinear manner. Paper is something like 5-6 stops IIRC. Even higher end monitors only have about a 10-11 stop dynamic range. (There may be crazy expensive monitors for things like medical imaging that exceed this, I don't know.)

This why I personally have never liked scanning film. A good scanner like a V800 can capture 14 stops of SBR, but you can't get it all on the display. But that's maybe just my own pesky biases or lack of expertise.

addition, the pixel density of the current LED screens is close to that of an inkjet print. I think even though I love paper, it is a myth that a screen is inferior to print.

Again, an inkjet print isn't the standard, a silver print is the reference. I've never seen an inkjet print that - to my eye - approximates how a good silver print should look. The newer printers come closer but they still don't have that classic look. Everyone's mileage likely varies on this. (The best I have ever seen was when I would send my digital files to Costco for RA-4 prints. They were as good as any pro lab I used in many decades and better than most. The sale of that business to Shutterfly was a real loss.)

More importantly, most monitors don't have the resolution to capture the full resolution of film or digital. A 4K monitor is 3840x2160 which is 8.4 mpix - well below what even a low end digisnapper captures. Even small format film like 35mm is north of 20 mpix.

But the specific problem here is that a print reflects light, but a screen emits light. One isn't particularly better than the other, they are just different. Even with hours of tweaking and calibrating on a 10-bit LUT monitor, I've not ever been able to the display look like a print - and it likely never will. And that's great. I long ago accepted that digital and analog output do not compete, they produce different things for different purposes.

As a practical matter, none of this matters anyway. Even assuming we all had monitors that could produce images at the resolution and dynamic range of a film or high-resolution digital camera, there is still a problem. Among the many and various people on this forum there is no guarantee all our scanners and monitors are calibrated to a common standard and that our viewing environments are identical.

The closest I've come so far to scratching this itch is to print traditionally and scan the print. This captures the interpretive step all analog prints undergo of mapping up to 14 stops of light in the negative to the 5-6 of paper. It's not a perfect solution because of the aforementioned reflect vs. emit disconnect, but it's as good a way as I have found to share work with others, again noting the problem of mismatched monitors and viewing environments.

It's probably worth noting that prints themselves have an element of this problem - there is no guarantee the person viewing a physical print will do so from the distance and lighting environment the print maker intended.
 
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gary mulder

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Yes, that's true, but that's not the benchmark. The benchmark is a traditionally printed silver print which has been the gold standard for "photographs" for over a century. If you cannot do at least that well, you're going backwards.

Why is that the benchmark? Who says that?
 

chuckroast

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Why is that the benchmark? Who says that?

It's a "benchmark" in the sense that if you're not producing equivalent or better results you're using a newer technique or technology to go qualitatively backwards.

In this context, it's a "benchmark" because it was already better than printed newspaper images. If the newspaper image is the point of comparison, my 1.6 mpix Charmera is an improvement.
 

gary mulder

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It's a "benchmark" in the sense that if you're not producing equivalent or better results you're using a newer technique or technology to go qualitatively backwards.

Please try again. According to whom or what. It remains to be seen whether an optically printed photo is better than an inkjet. There are really millions of examples where this is not the case. With color, there is no doubt about it. Inkjet wins by a large margin. If only because the color space is really much larger. I really don't have any problem with analogue prints. But please don't claim that it is superior.
 

gary mulder

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But let's get back to the topic of this thread. Does the camera or lens used make a visible difference in the final result. For me; the camera hardly, the lens quite a lot. Regardless of which way you look at the end result. On a screen or via print
 

chuckroast

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Please try again. According to whom or what. It remains to be seen whether an optically printed photo is better than an inkjet. There are really millions of examples where this is not the case.

Since I cannot physically test this claim, all I can say is I've never seen one, at least for monochrome.

Let's recall why I responded as I did. You said: We can also conclude that a modern high-resolution screen easily leaves a photo printed in a newspaper behind. This is 100% true but entirely besides the point. A printed newspaper picture isn't really a good point of comparison because it's already a qualitatively inferior image to a silver print, even in its own time.

With color, there is no doubt about it. Inkjet wins by a large margin. If only because the color space is really much larger.

Only if you're comparing it to an RA-4 print vs. inkjet made from a wide gamut digital capture. Since most people capture with 8bits/color sRGB, the difference isn't profound. It's not even close if you go look at a good dye transfer or Ciba image.

Again, everyone sees differently and everyone works differently and there's room for it all.

But recall, the central question here is whether a monitor can adequately and effectively display images as well as physical print. I tried to suggest some reasons why this is inherently difficult, nothing more.
 

chuckroast

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But let's get back to the topic of this thread. Does the camera or lens used make a visible difference in the final result. For me; the camera hardly, the lens quite a lot. Regardless of which way you look at the end result. On a screen or via print

Assuming a healthy camera, I agree entirely. But I'll go further. Lenses of the same generation and general optical design tend to have a similar look. It's when when you move across generations and/or optical approaches that the differences appear.

The most gross difference, in my experience, has been differences in coating, followed by generational changes in a given lens' design. There is also a pretty significant difference of option between, say, Nikon, Leica, and Hasselblad/Zeiss about what a lens "look" should be.

My only point earlier when asked about such lens "character" is that these differences can be subtle and that's very difficult to render on a screen - particularly in the 8 bit/color universe of the web.
 

gary mulder

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Lenses of the same generation and general optical design tend to have a similar look.
The lenses in the examples above, SUMMICRON-M and the PLANAR 80mm are of the same generation. And the differences are clearly visible on my screen. Maybe it's time for a new computer screen?
 

chuckroast

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I just looked it up and the 90mm 'Cron-M is 5 elements in 5 groups.

The 80mm Planar (at least the 'Blad version) is 7 elements in 5 groups.

This level of difference is going to likely be visible even on a screen depending on what exactly you're displaying - a film or print scan.
 
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RezaLoghme

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Since I cannot physically test this claim, all I can say is I've never seen one, at least for monochrome.

Let's recall why I responded as I did. You said: We can also conclude that a modern high-resolution screen easily leaves a photo printed in a newspaper behind. This is 100% true but entirely besides the point. A printed newspaper picture isn't really a good point of comparison because it's already a qualitatively inferior image to a silver print, even in its own time.



Only if you're comparing it to an RA-4 print vs. inkjet made from a wide gamut digital capture. Since most people capture with 8bits/color sRGB, the difference isn't profound. It's not even close if you go look at a good dye transfer or Ciba image.

Again, everyone sees differently and everyone works differently and there's room for it all.

But recall, the central question here is whether a monitor can adequately and effectively display images as well as physical print. I tried to suggest some reasons why this is inherently difficult, nothing more.

I would have guessed - being an amateur - that many of the "famous" photographs came into life on the front page of a newspaper or magazine.Printed on cheap paper.
 
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RezaLoghme

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Of course, you don't have to choose. Because you do, I always find it very interesting to know why. By the way, there is more than 20 years between the making of those two pictures. My preference for optics has also become a lot more pronounced in that time. The copyright date is the date on which I scanned the print for my digital archive.

Because I look at the photo's subjects, not so much whether the halftones are creamy. The second one had more "going on", for want of a better expression. That is what captures my attention. not so much scratching my beard about microcontrast.

Is that how you look at a painting? "Hmmm, Pablo had a really fine brushstroke here!".
 

gary mulder

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I just looked it up and the 90mm 'Cron-M is 5 elements in 5 groups.
Pictures are much more convincing. 6 elements in 5 groups, double-Gauss variant. The same as the Planar. Also a double-Gauss variant.
Screenshot 2025-10-30 at 17.08.45.png
 
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Andrew O'Neill

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Because I look at the photo's subjects, not so much whether the halftones are creamy. The second one had more "going on", for want of a better expression. That is what captures my attention. not so much scratching my beard about microcontrast.

Is that how you look at a painting? "Hmmm, Pablo had a really fine brushstroke here!".

I can tell you for a fact, that many do look at brushstrokes.
 

gary mulder

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The second one had more "going on", for want of a better expression. That is what captures my attention.

Thanks, that's how I look at photos. Nice to read that it can be about the content.
 

chuckroast

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Because I look at the photo's subjects, not so much whether the halftones are creamy. The second one had more "going on", for want of a better expression. That is what captures my attention. not so much scratching my beard about microcontrast.

Is that how you look at a painting? "Hmmm, Pablo had a really fine brushstroke here!".

Depends on whether you're more biased toward storytelling or art for its own sake
 

warden

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I’ve always thought of 35mm cameras as mainly light tight boxes that hold the film and lens. There are measurable differences in cameras, i.e. faster shutter speeds, program modes or fast auto-winding, but aside from certain features the camera isn’t all that important and most any brand will do. It’s the lenses and film that make the difference IMO.
 

chuckroast

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Pictures are much more convincing. 6 elements in 5 groups, double-Gauss variant. The same as the Planar. Also a double-Gauss variant.
View attachment 410286

Weird.

My source claims the CF Planar CD is 7 elements in 5 groups:

https://lens-db.com/carl-zeiss-planar-t-80mm-f28-cf-1982

However, the older C lens looks to be 6 elements in 4 groups so that might be the discrepancy:

 
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