Latitude of colour negative film

Chuck_P · Dec 5, 2009

markbarendt said:
I would almost bet this is why Ansel used the word "zones" instead of "stops" to describe his system for exposure and printing. 11 zones in the scene are caught in 11 zones on the film and printed in 11 zones on paper regardless of how many f-stops are involved.

Pretty intuitive of you. The word "Zone" refers only to the exposure scale i.e., the "Zones of the exposure scale". The scale itself representing levels of exposure starting initially with the original meter reading then progressing downward to -5 then upward to +5. The choice for Roman numerals came about to ensure no confusion between the zones of the exposure scale and the numerical luminance value readings associated with meters-------so when the needle lands on 5, there is no absolute relation between the numerical number 5 and the exposure Zone V. Making it easy to see that a luminance value of 5 can be "placed" on, say, zone III of the exposure scale, so that development will produce a negative density value of III (fixing that density on the negative) and printing can yield a print value III (but the final print value is not necessarily fixed, it can be subject to your manipulations). In this way, all other luminances in the scene will fall on the exposure scale relative to the placement of the initial reading.

2F/2F · Dec 5, 2009

The highest DR figure I have seen in independent testing of the Fuji is just over 12 stops with raw tweaking. I haven't used it, myself, though I have used just about every Canon made since the original 1D. The best of them get about a stop from the Fuji with raw tweaking. Not one of them has anywhere near the usable DR of color negative film, or even b/w negative film. This is a discussion for another forum, but 14 stops of usable dynamic range from the Fuji is just not the case...and it is sad that we think of that as a lot of DR, after all these years of digital being shoved down consumers' throats as superior in every way. Getting 14 stops compressed into a print is really a fairly simple and easy affair with b/w printing or C-41 printing...with the caveat being that you have to know what the hell you are doing a lot more than you do with digital. You need to understand chemistry, printing, etc., and you can't blow through 50 images like nothing...but the technical superiority in this area still belongs to film.

Athiril · Dec 5, 2009

That's incorrect - you cannot change the dynamic range of an image with "raw tweaking" it is fixed, and the information is either there or isn't - though you may clip some during raw conversion if youre not careful.

Look at the low ISO results in DR on dxomark.com

Sirius Glass · Dec 6, 2009

Athiril said:
That's incorrect - you cannot change the dynamic range of an image with "raw tweaking" it is fixed, and the information is either there or isn't - though you may clip some during raw conversion if youre not careful.

Look at the low ISO results in DR on dxomark.com

Please keep the digital comments in the HybridPhoto sister site.

Moderators please move the digital comments to HybridPhoto so that this thread does not get closed.

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Galah · Dec 6, 2009

What about the paper?

hrst said:
So, there is no "exposure latitude" for a given film, but rather there is "exposure latitude" for a given film AND scene.

So, the colour-negative film may have a long dynamic range, but what about the photographic paper the negative is printed on?:confused:

I have heard it said that the dynamic range of the photographic paper is substantially less than that of the film (only 1/2 or 1/3rd that of the film: i.e. onnly about 5 stops).

Hence, even if the detail is present in the negative, it won't translate to (or show on) the actual print

(Although, as markbarendt points out, you can selectivley print segments of the range)

BTW: Thanks for the interesting illustration (the "overexposed" frame).

When viewing colour prints, its amazing how much more detail one can see and how much more "zing" the print has, if viewed in bright light, especially in full sunlight.

Photo Engineer · Dec 6, 2009

By dodging and burning, a very large portion of the negative scale can be used. And, as I said before, prints on print film can utilize the entire scale. Under very bright lighting though, you can see the hidden portions of the tone scale in the dmax of a print.

PE

markbarendt · Dec 6, 2009

Galah said:
Hence, even if the detail is present in the negative, it won't translate to (or show on) the actual print

(Although, as markbarendt points out, you can selectivley print segments of the range)

Galah,

I apologize, my words seem to have led you astray.

You most certainly can print the entire range. If the film happens to catch 20 stops of the scenes brightness with detail then you can print all 20.

By selective I mean that you can select all or part of that entire range, whatever suits your needs.

Galah · Dec 6, 2009

markbarendt said:
Galah,
You most certainly can print the entire range. If the film happens to catch 20 stops of the scenes brightness with detail then you can print all 20.
.

OK, thanks

Medusa83 · Dec 13, 2009

So I took 5 4x5" shots for test shots where I wrote down very detailed info to check exposures before I go on vacation. The "pro" lab that I sent it to was nice enough to cross process it for me so now I have no idea about how the exposures turned out and no time to do another batch

markbarendt · Dec 13, 2009

Uhggerrahhh *&^*&*(%%$**(%$$##

I feel your pain.

Greg Campbell · Dec 19, 2009

Let me rephrase this thread's question in a slightly different way.

I've always shot slides, but have recently bought a variety of neg film for my 6x6; NPS160 and Portra, with Ektar100 coming soon.
I'll be using a spot meter and exposure compensation to place critical shadows at a particular exposure value.

From what I've read, I understand that neg film has quite a bit more linear highlight headroom, up to 5+ (!) stops, compared to 2 or 3 stops of shadow latitude. Correct?

Can someone offer ballpark specifics: Using film, X, how deep are the detailed shadows, -2, 2.5, maybe -3 stops?
And just how far do those highlights hang in there? I'll certainly shoot some test images, but would appreciate a starting point.

Also, how much of this latitude is 'extractable' by a typical dedicated film scanner? (Nikon 8/9K, etc.)

Thanks.

Greg

nworth · Dec 19, 2009

Color negative film behaves a lot like black and white negative film. There are differences between films, of course, but a ballpark for dynamic range would be +/-4 zones (stops), with maybe a bit more on the highlight side. You probably will get some texture but not any detail in zone I, and rather little detail in zone II. Shadows can safely be placed high in zone III with good detail. Zone IX may retain some detail; zone X may even show a little.

markbarendt · Dec 19, 2009

Greg Campbell said:
...From what I've read, I understand that neg film has quite a bit more linear highlight headroom, up to 5+ (!) stops, compared to 2 or 3 stops of shadow latitude. Correct?

This depends on where you place your shadows. With C-41 I find it tough to burn out any highlights that matter. See next point.

Greg Campbell said:
...Can someone offer ballpark specifics: Using film, X, how deep are the detailed shadows, -2, 2.5, maybe -3 stops?

The best way to get a feel for this is to shoot a test roll.

Greg Campbell said:
Also, how much of this latitude is 'extractable' by a typical dedicated film scanner? (Nikon 8/9K, etc.)

Scanning questions are off topic here at APUG but http://www.hybridphoto.com/forums/home.php can help.

Greg Campbell · Dec 19, 2009

nworth said:
Color negative film behaves a lot like black and white negative film. There are differences between films, of course, but a ballpark for dynamic range would be +/-4 zones (stops), with maybe a bit more on the highlight side. You probably will get some texture but not any detail in zone I, and rather little detail in zone II. Shadows can safely be placed high in zone III with good detail. Zone IX may retain some detail; zone X may even show a little.

Thank you! I'm off to shoot the new film tomorrow - this will give me a good idea of what to expect and how to proceed.

Latitude of colour negative film

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