Large format on a long-ish trip

abruzzi · Apr 21, 2021

I have been noodling with LF so far, but when I go on a trip, I load up my medium format, or maybe even 35mm gear because they are so much more convenient--going through rolls, loading new rolls, writing notes on the spent roll so I know whats on it, etc.

LF seems like it is much more challenging in this respect. I can preload 10 film holders, but that will likely only last a day or two. So I need a changing bag (which I bought for this purpose, but the changing bag is a pain to use compared to loading film in my darkroom. Then I also need a way to store spent film in a way that a) I know it is spent, and b) I can determine what film it is so I can properly develop it. I have some light proof plastic bags, but no left over boxes, since I haven't shot that much, and I still have a third of my first box of 4x5 film.

To determine what a sheet of spent film is I could use the notch code, but I don't know if the film I have actually has meaningful notches. I suspect all the fomapan (I have a mostly spent box of 100 and an unused boxes of 200) doesn't becase the 100 just has a semicircular punch, identical to the CatLabs 80 I have. I don't know about the Bergger Pancro. The datasheet doesn't mention the notch. So I feel like I'd need to store the sheets, pre-sorted. This is not necessarily a huge issue, as I expect I'll shoot 90% Foma 100.

All this stuff is obvious, and some of the solutions are obvious as well. What I wated to ask is if there are any non-obvious solutions to this process. I'd love to hear other's process for taking large format on an extended week long or longer trip. I have a 9 day vacation next month, and I'm going to spend it camping in varous remote parts of New Mexico (my home state and a very photogenic state.) I'm trying to decide if I should load up the 4x5 (Master Technika) or play it safe and bring the 6x7 medium format camera (Bronica GS-1). I'd bring the 4x5 if I could feel reletively confident that I could make all this work.

Donald Qualls · Apr 21, 2021

One simple solution for part of the problem: shoot one film only. There's not really any reason to have both Foma 100 and Catlabs 80 anyway (and I'd leave the 200 home in favor of the 100 -- take a fresh box of that rather than a second emulsion); there's not that much difference between the two (IMO).

Also, practice before you go, loading and unloading film holders in the dark bag (ideally with scrap film sheets, so you can test opening and closing the dark slides -- I've had a number of occasions in the past year where film holders I thought were correctly loaded wouldn't let the dark slide reseat after exposure). Everything is worse in a dark bag than in a darkroom.

Then, if you have time, consider getting a roll film holder for your 4x5 camera. Easy to reload on the road, easy to store the unexposed and exposed film, film is cheaper -- but you still get to practice ground glass work, movements, etc. Make it the same emulsion as your sheet film, so you can do the same exposures.

Larry Cloetta · Apr 21, 2021

I just returned from a 7 day trip with, not exclusively, LF. My solution: Buy 20 more film holders. That gives you 60 exposures instead of 20. Label the film holders with film type, and keep unexposed ones in one box, exposed ones somewhere else. All problems solved. Not the most economical way to do it, for sure. Easy and clean, though.
Yes, it’s not the only way to handle this.

Ko.Fe. · Apr 21, 2021

I went for six days trip with LF camera. 10 holders (20 exposures) is a lot.

mmerig · Apr 21, 2021

Why not bring the 4 by 5 and the others (or at least the medium format)? Ten or more 4 by 5 shots a day sounds like a lot to me, especially if there is hiking or backcountry camping involved. The downs-side of a changing-bag is more chance for dust on the film. There is some information on the large format photography website on managing film on trips. I use a notch-system related to numbered holders for keeping track of film, along with a note-book. Most of my 4 by 5 work is paid-work, with specific objectives, so that actually simplifies things for me.

When I need to, I use a 4 by 5 field camera on extended trips, some to very remote areas. Camping equipment and food add-up, and having ten holders adds even more weight and takes up a fair amount of space. I try to make each shot count - maybe that's the non-obvious solution you are looking for..

By the way, I have lots of empty 4 by 5 boxes, and can send some to you if you like.

abruzzi · Apr 21, 2021

Ko.Fe. said:
I went for six days trip with LF camera. 10 holders (20 exposures) is a lot.

20 exposures is way more than I can shoot in a day for LF, but no way it would last me a week, at least out here.

Donald Qualls said:
One simple solution for part of the problem: shoot one film only. There's not really any reason to have both Foma 100 and Catlabs 80 anyway (and I'd leave the 200 home in favor of the 100 -- take a fresh box of that rather than a second emulsion); there's not that much difference between the two (IMO).

Yeah, the CatLabs isn't different enough to bring it, and I was expecting to shoot primarily Foma 100, but a 400 speed might be useful (my first campsite will will be at a place called "dark canyon" so faster film may be helpful there), and I do have a box of Provia that I'd like to shoot from. Now the Provia will have proper notch codes.

Donald Qualls · Apr 21, 2021

At home, I have an open box of .EDU Ultra 400 (same as Foma 400, including same notch codes), but I don't recall what notch codes that has. Further, since you're shooting on a tripod anyway, faster film may not be as necessary as it would be if you were shooting 35mm or medium format hand held. Just expose longer. Unfortunately, Foma has just about the worst reciprocity characteristics of any film out there -- you need to start adding time beyond 1 second, and it goes something like 2.9x per stop less light. If you can afford it and get it in time, a box of T-Max 100 might be a better choice, since it will handle long exposures with much less correction than Fomapan.

You might also want to look up and print a reciprocity chart for whatever film you take with you. That's an important tool for reducing your load-out to include only a single, relatively slow film.

Fortunately, from what I recall, Provia has very good reciprocity -- unless that's Velvia. I've never used color in 4x5, myself. I want to, but I need to get a little higher level of proficiency with my Agitank before I'll spend several dollars a sheet (vs. around a buck for the rebranded Fomapan).

abruzzi · Apr 21, 2021

Donald Qualls said:
Fortunately, from what I recall, Provia has very good reciprocity -- unless that's Velvia. I've never used color in 4x5, myself. I want to, but I need to get a little higher level of proficiency with my Agitank before I'll spend several dollars a sheet (vs. around a buck for the rebranded Fomapan).

The Provia was something I bought just for fun. I'm still pretty beginner with LF shooting, so I'm basically shooting cheap film (actually I love Foma 100, even if it is cheap) but the Provia (at like $5 per shot) was just something I bought to throw some curves with. I'll be visiting some very photogenic places that will look great in B&W, but will sometimes be nice to have some color (VLA, Chaco Canyon, Bisti Badlands, Canyon de Chelly) I won't be visiting Carlsbad Caverns so no need to go to 5 minute exposures.

My biggest worry with just shooting 100 and moving down to very low shutter speeds is the higher likelihood of me screwing up the shot by not locking things down, or sping winds introducing shake. Fortunately, 95% of what I'll be shooting will easily handle 100 speed at usable shutter speeds.

grahamp · Apr 21, 2021

If you don't have lots of 4x5 boxes, you can use a paper box with a large bag, and separate internal bags for each emulsion. Put strips of tape on the individual bags so you can identify them by touch, and only work on one emulsion at a time. But working in a changing bag/tent is not much fun. [Anyone else close their eyes to aid concentrating on touch and the 'map' of the bag contents?]

I mostly use one emulsion in 4x5 (Delta 100). I have a few holders designated for Ortho and HP5, but I don't worry about using them up on a trip. I do have a roll film holder which is a good fall back. I work within the confines of what I have with me - photography is not my livelihood.

If you are doing ten sheets a day, you should have enough boxes in about a week

Peter Schrager · Apr 21, 2021

You don't need a changing..go to a motel for the night bring some garbage bags and tape
Reload at night...bring as many film holders as possible...don't presume 4 or 5 photos per day
Film is cheap...experience is not
I'm taking off shortly on a 15 day trip and bringing as many WP holders as I have and about 150 sheets of film ....

Donald Qualls · Apr 21, 2021

abruzzi said:
My biggest worry with just shooting 100 and moving down to very low shutter speeds is the higher likelihood of me screwing up the shot by not locking things down, or sping winds introducing shake. Fortunately, 95% of what I'll be shooting will easily handle 100 speed at usable shutter speeds.

If your movements and tripod head aren't locked down or your tripod is vibrating, daylight (especially f/32 or so) won't give fast enough shutter to help you. If everything is solid, five minutes (f/32 or f/45 in moonlight) will still be fine (and there's less likely to be significant wind after dark anyway).

Perfect what Matt Marrash calls "the dance" -- and unless the wind is threatening to blow your tripod over, or your tripod is inadequate, you'll be fine.

BTW, inside Carlsbad, the lights installed probably won't get you to five minutes on Foma 100 at an aperture that will give you adequate DOF. It's a cave, after all, and you'd probably need a special arrangement to use a tripod inside at all, anyway (never mind to keep the lights on long enough at a time to set up, compose/focus/frame, expose, and break down for the hike to the next view).

jeffreyg · Apr 21, 2021

Since you will be camping you will probably need a changing bag. If you will be near a restroom at night you might be lucky to find one with no windows. Cover the open space at the bottom of the door with the changing bag or black garbage bags. Take two film boxes with the black bags inside. One should be empty for exposed film and the other has your supply of unexposed film. Take only one film or take four boxes one empty for each.. I've done it but with one film. Six holders and stayed in hotels so it was easy to cut out the light. Now with air travel as it is I stick to medium format and if going with carry on only then digital. Enjoy your trip remember the real camera is between you ears.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

http://www.sculptureandphotography.com/

TheFlyingCamera · Apr 21, 2021

I did a two week trip to Argentina with a 5x7, and I want to say 10-15 holders. I was lucky that the bathrooms in the hotels I stayed in were sufficiently light-tight that I could change my film there after going out shooting for the day. I'd recommend bringing along spare film boxes, and labeling them as "exposed" or something so you'll know they are your exposed film. Bring at least one empty box per film type you're going to shoot. If you don't have a bunch of spare boxes, usually the film boxes have a bit of space in them, so you can consolidate your un-shot film from two boxes into one, and then you have a spare box and a spare light-proof bag.

On a related topic, when traveling with large format, resist the urge to bring your entire lens arsenal with you, and pare your choices down to no more than three. Practice packing, un-packing, and re-packing your bag so that you know where everything belongs, and you have an organizational system. It will make it faster and easier to set up and break down before and after shots, and it will also help you remember where you put all your stuff, so you'll know if you didn't put the cable release back in the bag, or heaven forbid, left your unobtanium lens on the ground at the last shot setup.

Doremus Scudder · Apr 21, 2021

Backpacking with LF is much different than road trips/car camping.

For the former, I carried Mido holders and/or roll-film backs and a really lightweight kit that strapped on to the top of my pack. Alternately, I carried just six film holders, but changed them out when needed at night, inside the tent, sitting on my sleeping bag and using a clean garbage bag as a work surface. Exposed sheets went into empty film boxes as described below. I don't do nearly as much backpacking these days as earlier.

For road trips/car camping, I take lots of stuff. The heart of the kit is a largish cooler with 50 film holders. I carry five or six with me in a separate pouch each day and change them out when needed. That means I have 100+ exposures before I need to reload. Usually, I don't have to reload for weeks, but I can be on the road for two or three months at a time sometimes. I think the most I've ever reloaded is three times in one (extended) trip.

If I do need to reload, I find a motel with a windowless bathroom (I usually need a shower and a restaurant meal by that time anyway). I have three empty film boxes with me on trips as well, labeled "N," "N+" and "N-." I usually shoot both 320 Tri-X and TMY, but they are easy to differentiate with the code notches. So, when reloading, I'll unload all the "N" negatives first and put them in the "N" box Then I'll unload all the N-1, N-2 (and maybe the occasional N-3) negs into the "N-" box, separating the different development schemes using sheets of the cardboard that comes with the film (N-1 negs go on top, then a separator, N-2 under that, etc.). I rarely use N+2 development any more, preferring to get contrast other ways if needed, so the "N+" box just gets the N+1 negatives. All my holders are numbered and notched, and I keep an exposure record for every negative, so there are no problems with mix ups. After reloading, I've got another 100+ sheets to expose.

For shorter trips, e.g., just a few days, I'll take a smaller cooler (or box or whatever) with fewer holders. The trick is to estimate correctly how many holders I'll need. I err on the side of too many since I've got the car...

I take a lot more lenses and cameras than I can carry hiking as well, deciding what I need in my kit before I set out on day hikes and leaving the rest locked up in the car (in the ugliest boxes and bags I can find so they don't look like anything important).

FWIW, I hate changing bags. I've got a nice Calumet changing tent that I never use...

Best,

Doremus

abruzzi · Apr 21, 2021

I have 10 or 12 film holders, and since I’m not backpacking, I’ll bring all I have. I am thinking more and more of just bringing fomapan 100 for simplicity. I’ll be photographing and camping out of my truck, so size and weight won’t be a huge concern. I should be able to bring just about anything I need. As far as lenses I have a 75, 90, 105, 150, 180, 210, 250, and 360. I doubt I'll take all of them, probably just the bold ones, but I will be "car camping", so I won't be hurting for space.

I've tried using the changing bag, and am not thrilled with it. I might see if I can put together something simple to stand it up so it doesn't fall on my hands while I'm trying to load film. I have an old darkroom book where in the beginning the autor says that you can load you development tank on your porch at night. That would be so much nicer, but I just looked and the middle of my trip is a full moon, so I'll have pretty bright moons through the whole trip, so the changing bag will be necessary.

John Earley · Apr 21, 2021

Get a Grafmatic or a Quickload film holder.

Paul Howell · Apr 21, 2021

I take 2 coolers with wheels, keep it in the back of my SUV, or store in my room overnight, I take 20 holders, 2 boxes of film, 4 empty 4X5 film boxes with plastic inserts, one marked 0, one +1, one -1 and one -2, (in general when I shoot zone I don't shoot over +1, but if you do you need a 5th box) changing bag and black plastic sheet with tape. I've found that the vast majority of motel bath rooms don't have outside windows, change film at night, if needed tape over the door. I take my Crown or New View, 3 lens, set of filters and lens hoods, spot meter, Weston master VI, then Kowa 6X6 3 lens, and 35mm with 4 lens. Oh, my trusty Quick Set tripod and a monopod. A couple of backpacks. Not light but manageable

DREW WILEY · Apr 21, 2021

Quickload and Readyload film sleeves are out of production. They were nice for backpacking once the bugs were worked out. Harrison film tents are nice. But after dark you can simply take one of those larger thick black plastic bags printing paper comes in, rinse it out, and use that. I personally wouldn't even buy any cheapo film without distinct code notches, because other quality control issues seem to always come with that territory. Last thing I'd want on an important or difficult trip is dicey film quality. I'm not a machine-gunner, so never have needed to carry a lot of holders. I also have the compact Mido II holder system, which takes up half as much space as regular holders, but save only about 30% weight. Then there's the down and dirty option : roll-film holders for your 4x5.

Every kind of gear transition has its own learning curve. You're going to make some mistakes. If you do decide on taking your 4x5, you might want to practice with that system as much as possible in advance. Dealing with sand and grit in the desert is especially a problem when loading or unloading sheet film. You need to keep dust religiously out of your changing bag too, as well as out of the inside of the camera bellows. But I've done lots of dust-free photography in the Southwest in both 4X5 and 8x10 formats. Won't get into details here; bit it's certainly doable. Treating plastic filmholders and darkslides with an antistatic spray in advance also tremendously helps.

urnem57 · Apr 21, 2021

I’m not sure if it was mentioned here or not, but a changing tent appears to have more space than a bag does. Personally, I have never used one. I have loaded 500’ rolls of movie film into an Arriflex Magazine using a jumbo changing bag in the back of a pickup truck on the highway in the desert, though. It’s kinda like riding a bike. Once you get the feel for it, you’ll never forget it and only get better at it. Look in to the jumbo changing bags for motion picture use. They are large enough to wash a small dog inside, hold a baptism, and even load IMAX Film Magazines.

abruzzi · Apr 21, 2021

John Earley said:
Get a Grafmatic or a Quickload film holder.

Thanks, but I'm not sure that really helps much, unless I can get a bunch of them. Space or speed isn't the issue, changing the film in the film holder and storage and separation of shot film while on the road is probably the biggest challenge, and a grafmatic gives me more shots on a single holder, but if my trip end up with say, 60 shots (10 shots a day over 6 days), I'd need 10 grafmatics to save me that issue. Although when Doremus mentions that he goes out with 50 loaded holders, maybe 16 grafmatics doesn't sound so bad.

Paul Howell said:
I take 20 holders, 2 boxes of film, 4 empty 4X5 film boxes with plastic inserts, one marked 0, one +1, one -1 and one -2, (in general when I shoot zone I don't shoot over +1, but if you do you need a 5th box)

Thanks the detail. I don't do zone system at this point (too new to large format, and haven't really come up with a dev regimen to support the +1/-1 development.) so, at this point, I don't need to keep the +1/-1 shots separate. I definitely want to get there eventually, but at this point I'll still take spot readings, but that will mostly be to fit the exposure to normal dev. I've found the spotmeter to be critical to getting well exposed reversal film (the two 4x5 shots of provia I've shot so far actually came out very nice, and are just amazing to put on a light table with a loupe.)

I may bring a 35mm to supplement the LF, but I'm hesitant to bring too much other gear.

Vaughn · Apr 21, 2021

I spent about 6 months in NZ on a bicycle, along with a 4x5, one lens, 5 holders, and a changing bag. I exposed about 75 sheets of film on that trip. Should of had ten holders!

You will find that with 'only' ten holders, you probably will get better at pre-exposure editing (not exposing the film). You might only have 3 holders of unexposed film, it will be the rest of the day before you can reload...or maybe two days, the light is great, and you have to make every piece of film count. That was my situation in NZ quite a few times. It had to be a mighty important image to expose two sheets (one for a back-up or a slight change in composition). I exposed two sheets for this one. Tolaga Bay Wharf, East Cape, NZ, 1986, 4x5, 16x20 silver gelatin print.

A more recent trip in Chile (car-camping w/ my boys) for a month with the 5x7, I took 6 holders and a Calumet changing tent. I exposed 30 negatives. I would have liked to have made more images, but I was having a lot of fun exploring with my boys (and had some interesting weather). Beached Boat, Southern Chile, 5x7 platinum print.

Road trips from home I take 30 holders loaded 8x10 holders, a dozen 5x7, and six+ 11x14 holders. No changing bag and I head home once the film is all exposed (a Rolleiflex to extend the time if needed).

For the NZ trip, I put the exposed sheets of film into the box and kept track of the order in which they were put into the box. Sort of worked! Now I prefer not to reload (thus the large number of holders!)

awty · Apr 22, 2021

Im holidaying now with a 4x5 and 24x30cm cameras. Using 3 different 4x5 films and 24x30cm and 8x10 film. I use a Fuji darkbox, best change bag ever. I put my 4x5 film in an envelope, write what type of film and photoing details on the envelope, put it in a light proof plastic bag then into a box. With the larger sheets I put in a foolscap card folder with details written on it then into a black plastic bag then into a box. All done in the change bag/boxy tenty thing.
Also have a heap of roll film and cameras, can never have enough film and cameras. Going to take days to process everything.

Donald Qualls · Apr 22, 2021

abruzzi said:
Space or speed isn't the issue, changing the film in the film holder and storage and separation of shot film while on the road is probably the biggest challenge,

I recently acquired a couple Grafmatics. There are other advantages beside speed and space -- they don't save much if any weight (one Grafmatic weighs about 90% what three film holders do), but they are much easier and faster to load and unload, at least for me, than a regular double dark slide. And far easier to avoid misloads.

That said, not all spring backs like them (one of the springs on my 1940 Anniversary Speed broke as I was removing the second Grafmatic the first time I had them out -- I'm now in process of converting the camera to Graflok), they're noisy in operation, they do nothing to improve dust issues, and they're critically dependent on the septums being flat.

You might look at building a changing box instead of using a standard bag. A large cardboard box can be grafted to a large changing bag to give additional working space without the cloth layers resting on top of the film, holders, and your hands when you're working in there. For car/truck camping the size isn't a problem (though these can be collapsible, that adds opportunities for light leaks), No worse for dust than a bag, but MUCH easier to work in.

Steve Goldstein · Apr 22, 2021

I've never gone on a trip where I needed more than a single empty 100-sheet Ilford 4x5 box for storing exposed film, but my travel with LF is typically been a week or two. I use three black bags: one is plain, one has a single strip of blue painters' tape (you can easily feel it in the dark) stuck on one side for minus development, and the third bag has a blue-tape "plus" sign on it for plus development. Within the minus bag I'll use cardboard dividers like Doremus does to separate N-1 from N-2. I also bring an empty 25-sheet box with its bag and a few extra strips of tape in case I fill one of the other bags; the filled bag goes in the small box. Use two rubber bands hold the boxes closed, that way they'll stay closed if one band breaks; bring extras. Ilford's boxes are nice because they're a bit larger internally than Kodak boxes and their 25-sheet bags are more flexible than Kodak's paper inner bags. I'm not familiar with Foma's packaging.

abruzzi said:
I've tried using the changing bag, and am not thrilled with it. I might see if I can put together something simple to stand it up so it doesn't fall on my hands while I'm trying to load film.

During a workshop I took with him some years ago John Sexton mentioned using tinkertoy pieces for this. You'll need twelve "sticks" and eight "corners"; the stick lengths will obviously depend on the size of your changing bag. The frame can be assembled when needed, and disassembled and left inside the changing bag for transport and storage.

abruzzi · Apr 22, 2021

Steve Goldstein said:
During a workshop I took with him some years ago John Sexton mentioned using tinkertoy pieces for this. You'll need twelve "sticks" and eight "corners"; the stick lengths will obviously depend on the size of your changing bag. The frame can be assembled when needed, and disassembled and left inside the changing bag for transport and storage.

Funny, I was thinking an erector set.

Large format on a long-ish trip

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