Large format camera manufacturing

TheFlyingCamera · Mar 24, 2006

Actually, Speed and Crown Graphics are a wooden box with metal trim bits. I've seen a number of them out there where the faux (or real as the case may be) leather covering went bad, and so was stripped off and the body refinished to a lovely mahogany finish. Looks wierd when you're used to seeing all-black Speeds, but hey... as long as it works!

Aggie · Mar 24, 2006

Horseman makes a wooden camera.

Jim Chinn · Mar 24, 2006

Actually the market is fairly elastic as far as pricing is concerned. I received about 50 inquiries about my cameras over the last year just from references on APUG. The vast majority of those told me that they could never afford a camera in the price range of a Wisner or Canham plus cost of new film holders. However they very much wanted to get into ULF and could do it for about 1/2 that cost. So the market is there, I simply have been working on designs to accomodate that marketplace. I don't think my cameras will probably have any effect on sales of Lotus, Canham, Phillips or Wisner.

The idea of the universal holders between formats on my cameras just adds additional value. With other mfgs one might have to spend an additional $2000-$3000 dollars to have a couple reducing backs and holders. With my design you only buy the extra holders and inserts for a fraction of that amount.

Petzi · Mar 24, 2006

Dan Fromm said:
Mahogany, you ignorant clot. Gandolfi. Wisner. Lotus. Ebony. Canham. Wista. ...

Those are all cameras made for enthusiasts, not for day-to-day use.

Mahogany is a fine material though. It is not completely politically correct to use it these days though, as it is a tropical wood.

I find wood acceptable for hand-held cameras, if you use it to manufacture a grip.

Dan Fromm · Mar 24, 2006

Petzi said:
Those are all cameras made for enthusiasts, not for day-to-day use.

Mahogany is a fine material though. It is not completely politically correct to use it these days though, as it is a tropical wood.

I find wood acceptable for hand-held cameras, if you use it to manufacture a grip.

Hmm. Do you know why there are so many used Deardorff cameras coming to market? Because high volume catalog photography shops are going digital and are selling off cameras that have been in continuous use for decades. 'dorffs are also made from mahogany, were used in what were effectively shot factories.

I repeat, you're a eurocentric ignoramus.

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 24, 2006

Are there in fact any metal cameras 11x14" or larger other than repro cameras and one-off special projects?

jp80874 · Mar 24, 2006

Petzi said:
Those are all cameras made for enthusiasts, not for day-to-day use.

Mahogany is a fine material though. It is not completely politically correct to use it these days though, as it is a tropical wood.

I find wood acceptable for hand-held cameras, if you use it to manufacture a grip.

By golly when you dig a hole for yourself you do a very good job. Add another wood to mahogany.

Basswood

Quoting from an old RH Phillips advertisement: One key is sandwich construction. Years ago, we started this process on the beds, using basswood faced with two part epoxy glass fabric. The rigidity relative to weight is awesome.

Now, the same principle is being applied to make a five part sandwich for other subassemblies such as reversing backs, fronts, ground glass frames, sliding platforms and back extensions. These are faced with either veneer or laminate that hides the joints and provides a uniform surface.

And added benefit: two part epoxy provides a far superior barrier against moisture and water vapor, as compared to lacquers and polyurethanes. Also we soak all end grain in epoxy, because most moisture exchange takes place through the exposed pores of end grain.

John Powers
A very satisfied R.H. Phillips 8x10 owner operator.

Now maybe we should inventory some of the professionals using wood cameras. Shall we start with Edward Weston and Ansel Adams? Lois Conner, Paula Chamlee, Micahel Smith, Art Sinsabaugh, Fred Picker, Tillman crane.
Would someone care to chime in?

Jerry Cunningham · Mar 24, 2006

Room and market feasibility for Large and ULF

I once owned a manufacturing metal shop and made a speciality product.
I think that the market is not there. Several times in my business we would do market research to see if there was an interest in a new product. We found that this research was very inaccurate. Nearly every enthusiast would praise the product highly and say how much they would like to own one. The problem was the difference betweeniwanting something and actually having the ability to buy the product. There is a large void between desire and those who can actually fill that desire with cold cash. Many business owners has fell to their death in that void.
I am certainly not trying to discourage anyone from developing their ideas and trying to sell them. There is no real advantage to be gained by CNC machines because every shop that is serious already has them. Every product has a true cost all that really matters is who is going to pay for that cost. Often it is the manufactory who bid too low and sometimes it is the customer who rightfully bears the cost.
In the global economy it is difficult for Americans to compete with labor this is often mere substance. China is not coming, China is already here. I would like to add that as a retired machinist I know they can make a quality product if that is what they are being paid for. I believe the next decade will see very strong penetration in the world LF community by the Chinese manufacturing shops. I have watched their quality go from rough to extremely good in about fifteen years. Unless, I already had an existing shop and was willing to financially absorb the competition for several years I would not try this market. That said, the United States needs people who throw risk to the wind and follow their dreams.

Petzi · Mar 24, 2006

Dan Fromm said:
Hmm. Do you know why there are so many used Deardorff cameras coming to market? Because high volume catalog photography shops are going digital and are selling off cameras that have been in continuous use for decades. 'dorffs are also made from mahogany, were used in what were effectively shot factories.

I repeat, you're a eurocentric ignoramus.

OK, I give in. You win. Wood is a better material to make a camera of than metal.

Petzi · Mar 24, 2006

jp80874 said:
Now maybe we should inventory some of the professionals using wood cameras. Shall we start with Edward Weston and Ansel Adams? Lois Conner, Paula Chamlee, Micahel Smith, Art Sinsabaugh, Fred Picker, Tillman crane.
Would someone care to chime in?

Do any of these photographers still live?

Ansel Adams sure used a wooden camera in the 1920s. But I remember an Arca Swiss camera shown in his books. Also a Calumet camera (all metal I guess?) Later he used Hasselblad. I am not aware that he used wooden cameras after like 1950 or so.

Not a very convincing point for wood. But I had already given in. Wood is the best material to make a camera of today.

Dave Parker · Mar 24, 2006

Petzi said:
Those are all cameras made for enthusiasts, not for day-to-day use.

Mahogany is a fine material though. It is not completely politically correct to use it these days though, as it is a tropical wood.

I find wood acceptable for hand-held cameras, if you use it to manufacture a grip.

Well I have to say that is one of the weirdest comments I have ever heard, I beg to differ, there have been a ton of wood cameras made for professional use, why do you think there are so many of them still around from the late 1800's, I know lots of people that use their wood cameras for day to day use, heck when I worked in our local store with studio attached, we used a wood 4x5 and a 8x10, and they got day to day use almost 8 hours a day 6 days a week and held up just fine.

Dave

waynecrider · Mar 24, 2006

I just wanted to note that that was a good post Jerry.

If you ask in a film forum that is heavily populated with shooters, who btw have cameras already, if your idea is a good one, you've missed the mark in my opinion. What you ought to do is poll other photography sites like Photonet, which is now very populated by digital shooters, and other photography forums, and ask how many of them would be willing to put down $1500 to $2500 for a new LF camera that needs accessories and 3 to 9 dollars a sheet film before processing; 4x5 excluded. There's not even enough buyers for the used 35mm and MF film cameras let alone LF at this time regardless of what appears to be happening to certain manufactuers. Maybe ask Lotus or Wisner how many they sell? As Jerry noted, China is here and going to be playing hard and things will be changing. I think overall that the idea of accessories like film holders, a new reduced size lens board system and a myriad of other wood or not wood accessories would be a better bet for a business. Otherwise you might seriously explore going to China and either rep'ing for a company or engineering for them based on your experiences with LF already. Otherwise another option might be consumables.

Dave Parker · Mar 24, 2006

Petzi said:
Do any of these photographers still live?

Ansel Adams sure used a wooden camera in the 1920s. But I remember an Arca Swiss camera shown in his books. Also a Calumet camera (all metal I guess?) Later he used Hasselblad. I am not aware that he used wooden cameras after like 1950 or so.

Not a very convincing point for wood. But I had already given in. Wood is the best material to make a camera of today.

Paula and Michael still live and produce quite a few images, what does them being alive or dead have to do with the durability of wood cameras?

Dave

dphphoto · Mar 24, 2006

Petzi said:
Do any of these photographers still live?

Ansel Adams sure used a wooden camera in the 1920s. But I remember an Arca Swiss camera shown in his books. Also a Calumet camera (all metal I guess?) Later he used Hasselblad. I am not aware that he used wooden cameras after like 1950 or so.

Not a very convincing point for wood. But I had already given in. Wood is the best material to make a camera of today.

Lois Connor and Tillman Crane are still around. So are George Tice, Robert Adams, and me (but I don't count, no one's heard of me).

Petzi · Mar 24, 2006

Satinsnow said:
Paula and Michael still live and produce quite a few images, what does them being alive or dead have to do with the durability of wood cameras?

Do they use the wood cameras for their work?

Anyway, my whole point is, that engineering decisions (here: the use of wood) that were valid in the 1920s are not necessarily valid in 2006. I believe that if you want to produce a ULF camera today, it shouldn't be "retro".

dphphoto · Mar 24, 2006

I'd sell 4X5's and 5X7's also. That's where the bulk of the market is, and those sales could carry the rest of the business. If you could bring out a 4X5 of Wisner or Canham quality at a grand or so (that uses Linhof/Wista boards) you could sell a ton of them.
Here's a niche for you. What about a 2X5 baby pano format camera, with holders (I'm sure someone would make the film) and neg holders for Omega and Beseler enlargers? Us gelatin silver enlarging types might like something like that. Dean

avandesande · Mar 24, 2006

A camera design that ignores the lesser manufacturing costs associated with composites and metal castings is going to cost more, the same way kitchen cabinets are cheaper out of laminate than hardwood.

Either you want a cheaper ULF camera or you don't.

David A. Goldfarb · Mar 24, 2006

Petzi said:
Anyway, my whole point is, that engineering decisions (here: the use of wood) that were valid in the 1920s are not necessarily valid in 2006.

The Lotus 20x24" camera is as modern a LF camera as you'll find. It has the best bail design you'll find on any camera back, and the option of solenoid controlled front movements that can be operated remotely. I don't think they made the body out of wood to save money or to appeal to "enthusiasts" or as a compromise over some other material.

Dave Parker · Mar 24, 2006

Petzi said:
Do they use the wood cameras for their work?

Anyway, my whole point is, that engineering decisions (here: the use of wood) that were valid in the 1920s are not necessarily valid in 2006. I believe that if you want to produce a ULF camera today, it shouldn't be "retro".

Yes, they use them for their work, as do I an a number of folks I know.

Dave

Dave Parker · Mar 24, 2006

avandesande said:
A camera design that ignores the lesser manufacturing costs associated with composites and metal castings is going to cost more, the same way kitchen cabinets are cheaper out of laminate than hardwood.

Either you want a cheaper ULF camera or you don't.

I think you may be surprised at how reasonable a camera can be made as well as many other quality products, my own company is a perfect example..

Dave

Dave Parker · Mar 24, 2006

David A. Goldfarb said:
The Lotus 20x24" camera is as modern a LF camera as you'll find. It has the best bail design you'll find on any camera back, and the option of solenoid controlled front movements that can be operated remotely. I don't think they made the body out of wood to save money or to appeal to "enthusiasts" or as a compromise over some other material.

I agree with David, I can tell you the 12x20 and the 20x24 Ebony, certainly was not made for an enthusiast, at tens of thousands of dollars, they cost!.

Dave

avandesande · Mar 24, 2006

There is a guy mass-producing wooden sailboats now.... he uses a computer controlled laser to cut out all of the pieces. I guess somebody inventive could do this with LF.

Petzi · Mar 24, 2006

I guess the project is doomed. People can't agree whether they want wood or metal. No, I'm mistaken here. I am the only one who wants metal. Everybody else wants wood. And I have given in already because I am convinced now that wood is better.

resummerfield · Mar 24, 2006

Petzi said:
.....I am the only one who wants metal. Everybody else wants wood......

Well, I love my Arca, and would prefer metal over wood. And Im guessing Keith Canham did a little research before he mentioned the new 20x24 all metal camera.

Richard Wasserman · Mar 24, 2006

Yikes, do I have a lot to think about! Wood, metal, cameras, film holders, accessories, yes, no.... I want to thank everyone for their input to my question. I have not yet decided what, if anything, I want to manufacture, but I sure have a lot to digest.

My business expertise is in custom made high end lighting primarily for residential use. I think I know aesthetics and I would not produce an item that is less than the best I am capable of; price is secondary. I hadn't thought about the possibilty of the Chinese entering the ULF market, that is a bit worrisome. It seems to me that this is currently an expanding market, I'm just not sure if it is really underserved. Like I said, I have a lot to think about. Thanks again

Richard Wasserman

Large format camera manufacturing

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