Lack of U.S. Bidders and World Market for Film Based Equipment.

[tribalista000]

What I've noticed here in the Philippines is that some of the digi shooters are going back to film and local prices for 2nd hand stuff are outrageously overpriced.

 

[Leigh Youdale]

My view is that there are maybe three main factors at work, and not all in the same direction.
1. There has been an over-accumulation of film camera equipment in recent years as people who were not really collectors bought things they liked but sold little. With money tight that trend is perhaps slowing or even reversing.
2. The impact of reduced film usage has resulted in many processing labs (whether quality or not) shutting down their business or that part of their business. Even printing from digital files is diminishing as people are just viewing stuff on their computers or posting on internet forums and galleries. It's a vicious cycle that continues to work against people maintaining or starting up an interest in film. An additional factor is that prices of film and processing has risen substantially.
3. The US economy is not in good shape. People are being careful with their discretionary spending. However, point 4 relates -
4. The US dollar is weak against many other currencies and so buying from the US is now quite attractive for people overseas. China and Japan, for example. Australia, too, but we don't have the population to make any sort of dent in the demand curve!

 

[Tim Gray]

The prices I've seen for trackable shipping have been insanely high. Am I looking in the wrong places?

You must be looking in the same place that I am. Last and only camera I sold on ebay cost me $55 to ship and insure for US delivery. I'm sure it was more expensive to send internationally.

More importantly, I didn't want to sell internationally because not only does it usually equal more hassle with customs, shipping, etc., but you end up making less money for it once Paypal takes it's extra cut. So more hassle for less money?

As far as buying stuff on ebay, speaking as a US buyer, I can usually find much better deals in forums than I can on Ebay. Heck, I can find much better deals at used camera stores on the internet than I can on Ebay.

 

[Aristophanes]

As far as buying stuff on ebay, speaking as a US buyer, I can usually find much better deals in forums than I can on Ebay. Heck, I can find much better deals at used camera stores on the internet than I can on Ebay.

I can (and have) found better deals on APUG than on eBay!

And with more trust between forum members.

Locally I can see and touch before committing. That's important.

The lack of affordable lab processing has become the biggest impediment to using film. The at-home lab is only economically viable if it is supported by the affordable lab ecosystem. When people see that lab processing is unaffordable they dump their film gear. It's an affordability issue and not a quality issue.

 

[mgb74]

The prices I've seen for trackable shipping have been insanely high. Am I looking in the wrong places?

I agree. But USPS First Class International is a bargain; cheap and surprisingly fast. However it's not trackable and you can't insure the package. I've shipped that way to China, Australia, New Zealand, Europe, and Canada without a hitch (at least not one yet). But generally low value (<$100) items. It does require a trip to the PO though.

Unfortunately, ebay's recently policy change to base their fees on the total (item sale price plus shipping cost) forces sellers who did not inflate shipping prices to increase the shipping cost to recover that "hit".

I've primarily sold items on ebay recently; usually items that garnered no interest here on APUG or on CL. And more than usual have gone to overseas buyers. You can still find good deals there but it's a funny market. I recently bought a 50mm AF lens that I wanted, with a N2000 body, cheaper than the typical price for the lens alone.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I can (and have) found better deals on APUG than on eBay!

And with more trust between forum members.

Locally I can see and touch before committing. That's important.

The lack of affordable lab processing has become the biggest impediment to using film. The at-home lab is only economically viable if it is supported by the affordable lab ecosystem. When people see that lab processing is unaffordable they dump their film gear. It's an affordability issue and not a quality issue.

The only exception for me is that recently the LF lenses are few and far between here. And those that are here are too expensive. I have been buying lenses on Large Format Photography Forum and eBay this month.

Steve

 

[Jim Noel]

I rarely buy off e-bay any more because the prices are generally outrageous. Occasionally when I decide to bid on something the dealer will not take anything but"rip-off pal". In those cases I walk as far away as possible. Once burned is enough.

 

[CGW]

The prices I've seen for trackable shipping have been insanely high. Am I looking in the wrong places?

USPS/Canada Post mesh very well re: tracking. I resent being charged a flat "international" USPS rate that's wildly out of line with rates on the USPS site for PMI that's insurable, trackable and reasonably priced. Some shippers are too lazy to find out the actual rate, charge way more, then pocket the difference. Most US sellers I've dealt with were honest about this and charged the metered rate.

 

[Uncle Bill]

1. The economy was decimated by the housing bubble; Banks tightened up credit and raised interest rates before consumer protection laws took effect.

2. People lost alot of money in the market 2 years back and then bailed out instead of buying.

3. We all know digital has been killing off film cameras sales, which for a time gave us alot of deals on good lenses in dead brands till 4/3rd's came along. Now their just as expensive as ever, if you can find the good ones.

4. Shipping and handling became expensive. Many sellers on Ebay became a little too greedy with their rates.

5. Many older cameras need a cla and when you cost that in the price is much higher.

6. I believe buyers (if any) that are on the sidelines are worried about films continuance. Too many film is dead articles.

7. Labs are dying, processing fee's went up, and mailing film out is not cheap if you have to pay rates like $17 a 36 exp roll printed at pro labs. With mailing back and forth and handling you've got an easy $25 a roll cost for the enthusiast. Local labs are of course is best, doing your own better. Now the cheap route is Costco.

8. The dollar lost value, gas is expensive, home insurance shot thru the roof if your near the hurricane coast, and food prices are up up.

Really, I'm surprised anything sells in the U.S. concerning film cameras. Accessories and lenses go, but bodies(?) why, we all have drawers full.

+1 Obvious point, the economy is still not doing and with the shenanigans in both Washington and Athens, it could get a lot worse if the politicians don't get their acts together.

Personally I'm still on the hunt for the odd lens here and there along with another body if the prices is right, but it's not like I need anything desperately. Besides I don't like getting hosed by people shipping their gear to Canada.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I rarely buy off e-bay any more because the prices are generally outrageous. Occasionally when I decide to bid on something the dealer will not take anything but"rip-off pal". In those cases I walk as far away as possible. Once burned is enough.

I got lucky. I bought a lens that was not compatible with the Graflex. The seller had over 1,000 sales and was proud of his five star rating. He had a seven day return period. I PMed him and told him that there was nothing wrong with the lens but the lens interferred with the mirror and I could not focus on infinity and the shortest bellows position. He was very nice and took it back.

Then I bought a 12" lens that I could not return and almost focused at infinity at the maximum extension [12"]. I sent it off to be mounted on an extension so that I can focus it at infinity and closer.

So I have the sharp LF lenses that I want now. The soft focus LF lenses out there seem to be above my paygrade. So I will wait for something good that I can afford to come along.

Steve

 

[jp498]

As a US buyer, I have bought mostly on lfinfo forum, here, and craigslist. Ebay is no longer the primary way to buy & sell old things on the Internet. The benefit of buying it on forums like here is the person selling it knows something about it. Chances are you've seen them post some nice photos made with what you're buying. The benefit of craigslist is that you can see it and touch it before you buy it if it's local. You may not get either with Ebay. What Ebay/paypal has going for it right now is that it's a good way to handle international transactions. I use it to buy stuff from China all the time for work and hobby.

Knowledgeable people will try to sell on the forums before going to ebay to avoid the high fees and to sell things quicker. I've sold stuff in minutes on lfinfo. Part of my daily Internet routine is to check lfinfo classifieds, craigslist, etc... Even if I'm broke at the moment, it's still interesting.

With the suffering economy, I see old lenses are more of a value choice than new ones. I could buy a big and cool lens for LF for half the price of a new Nikon nano-crystal-afs-g-wonderlens. I can buy a nice classic TLR for less than the price of a factory battery grip for a newer DSLR. The economy should be helping used equipment sales not hurting it.

 

[semi-ambivalent]

Some shippers are too lazy to find out the actual rate, charge way more, then pocket the difference.

Lazy? I've always thought this was because "Shipping & Handling" was not income but a cost of doing business. As such it is free of tax, if you can bury it deep enough.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

I was in the Galapagos Islands a few years back and one of the islands had shop with a Noritsu type film and print processor. Photographers in third world countries can't afford computers and printers to go with their digital cameras. Also, in Ecuador, some folks don't even have phones either. Ecuadorians go to "Cabinas" which are phone booths. They also have computers with internet connections there also. So us rich Americans don't think twice about going digital because we can afford computers and have fancy inkjet printers.

 

[moose10101]

USPS/Canada Post mesh very well re: tracking. I resent being charged a flat "international" USPS rate that's wildly out of line with rates on the USPS site for PMI that's insurable, trackable and reasonably priced. Some shippers are too lazy to find out the actual rate, charge way more, then pocket the difference. Most US sellers I've dealt with were honest about this and charged the metered rate.

Shipping a 2-lb package via Priority Mail to Canada is $22, while shipping it within the USA can be as low as $5. I can't see many international buyers being willing to pay that much.

 

[SkipA]

Craigslist: Have you seen the prices people are asking for junk? Is anything being sold there?

I completely agree with this. I always want to ask the seller what they are thinking. On occasion a interesting list will come about, but just crazy in price (my opinion). In the last week there has been an Agfa Isollette for $125, a Kodak Vigilant for $250 and Omega D5 enlarger for $450 and a D2 for $125. I have 2- D2's setting in my darkroom with no home as I have 3 D5's set up and ready. If only the D2's were not setting on them. I was going to Craigslist them, but I don't see the point. I listed a Pentax K1000 w/ f2 lens and verified shutter times for $75 and received an offer of $30. I'll keep it for a back up at that price.

Craigslist operates under a completely different dynamic than auction sites or even classified ads in the newspaper. Craigslist is a "horse trading" venue. With a few exceptions, no one accepts the price listed in an ad. Everyone expects to negotiate to the real price for an item. Knowlegeable sellers do not list an item at a price they actually expect to get. They list it for much more because that sets the initial negotiation range and target offer range.

If you want $100 for a lens, you don't list it for $100 on Craigslist. If you do, all of the offers you get will be in the $30 to $40 range. If you list it for $275 you've got room to negotiate to your real $100 expectation. Your first offer might even be for $100, so you take it. And every once in awhile, you might get lucky and some Craigslist noob who hasn't done their research and who has a strong desire for what you're selling will actually pay you your inflated price.

I don't have any problem getting the price I want for items I sell on Craiglist.

 

[kb3lms]

I feel that the lack of interest and buyers is because analog photography in the US is quickly becoming a DIY proposition. Speaking as a hobbyist, if you want to do your own darkroom work and can buy your film and other supplies online, you can still have fun. I could not afford to have all my film lab processed. If I were a working professional I don't think I would touch film. Hopefully, the artist and enthusiast crowd will help to keep film viable for a while longer. Other types of art supplies are readily available and I am really hoping that film moves into that category.

I don't really know where I would buy anything locally. Film is generally not available at local stores and in the few cases that it is, the prices are over-inflated. Expired or close to expired film off eBay used to be a good deal but these days I feel I can buy fresh film for the same money. Processing is getting very expensive and hard to find. And, no matter what the folks in Washington might say, the economy is not getting any better, at least not in this area.

Used equipment prices seem to have stabilized; certainly, they don't seem to be in free fall any longer. I'd like to buy a medium format outfit like an RB67 or a Pentax 645 but it's a little out of my reach at the moment and they sure don't seem to be getting any cheaper.

Really, though, I don't think digital gear can be doing all that well either. There's surely enough of it listed on Craig's List locally. Most people don't want to fool with computers and inkjet printers. They just want to take snapshots on their phone and dump them out on facebook. Maybe in other parts of the world people still want real pictures.

 

[SkipA]

I recently bought two Leica lenses on ebay from US sellers. Over the course of the six weeks that I watched and waited for the right deals on these lenses, I saw many similar items available from Hong Kong and from Germany. I chose the US sellers because their prices were considerably cheaper than the foreign sources for prime examples of the top quality items I was looking for.

But I rarely buy photography-related items anymore. I already have most of the cameras, lenses, and darkroom items that I want. At least for now.

 

[Jerry Thirsty]

Craigslist operates under a completely different dynamic than auction sites or even classified ads in the newspaper. Craigslist is a "horse trading" venue. With a few exceptions, no one accepts the price listed in an ad. Everyone expects to negotiate to the real price for an item. Knowlegeable sellers do not list an item at a price they actually expect to get. They list it for much more because that sets the initial negotiation range and target offer range.

If you want $100 for a lens, you don't list it for $100 on Craigslist. If you do, all of the offers you get will be in the $30 to $40 range. If you list it for $275 you've got room to negotiate to your real $100 expectation. Your first offer might even be for $100, so you take it. And every once in awhile, you might get lucky and some Craigslist noob who hasn't done their research and who has a strong desire for what you're selling will actually pay you your inflated price.

I don't have any problem getting the price I want for items I sell on Craiglist.

As a CL buyer, I take exactly the opposite approach. If someone's listed something for far more than the market value I assume they're too lazy to do their research, and don't even bother contacting them; it's not worth my time and effort to educate them. If somebody lists something I want at a fair price I'll buy without haggling.

 

[Aristophanes]

Craigslist operates under a completely different dynamic than auction sites or even classified ads in the newspaper. Craigslist is a "horse trading" venue. With a few exceptions, no one accepts the price listed in an ad. Everyone expects to negotiate to the real price for an item. Knowlegeable sellers do not list an item at a price they actually expect to get. They list it for much more because that sets the initial negotiation range and target offer range.

If you want $100 for a lens, you don't list it for $100 on Craigslist. If you do, all of the offers you get will be in the $30 to $40 range. If you list it for $275 you've got room to negotiate to your real $100 expectation. Your first offer might even be for $100, so you take it. And every once in awhile, you might get lucky and some Craigslist noob who hasn't done their research and who has a strong desire for what you're selling will actually pay you your inflated price.

I don't have any problem getting the price I want for items I sell on Craiglist.

I had a guy way overprice a decent model Pentax camera by well over $200 off the eBay completed auction price list I use as reference as well as the PentaxForums completed sales listings.

When I said I was interested he said the price was negotiable and I went by his place thinking he would tolerate an equivalent, researched, and reasonable offer.

Instead, he got very angry and threw the camera in the garbage right in front of me! He thought I would bargain maybe $20 off and not $200 (it was a $100 camera, not a $300 one).

Later he emailed me and wanted to know if the camera could be fixed as he'd ripped the lens mount off by throwing it away, and would I still want it at the $100 price I offered!

I did not reply to that email.

I regularly see 5 year-old P&S digital cameras offered for $200 by people's bizarre expectations of market value. When I reply, they go on about how much they originally paid for it, and they do not want to hear or acknowledge chattel depreciation even though they just replaced the model with a much newer and more capable one. It's like the US housing market some times.

For every savvy horse trader my experience is there are 3x as many sellers with unrealistic expectations. Those who want a quick sale do the smart thing and price pretty much what eBay items go for +maybe 10% for the shipping difference. I like those couter-parties best as they have done their research like I have done mine.

 

[MattKing]

I've had a great run recently on Craigslist buying Canon EOS film bodies and kit zoom lenses at ridiculously low prices.

On the other hand, the KEH prices for the Olympus Zuiko lenses that I use the most have gone way, way up.

And eBay is incredibly uninteresting now (for Olympus and Mamiya stuff), whereas 2-3 years ago it was great for buyers.

So I would guess that we are seeing fundamental market changes.

 

[Ian Grant]

When I go to camera fairs in the UK it's surprising just how many film cameras are being sold and the number being bought buy young people.
But we forget there is a big glut of mediocre cameras particularly 35mm, while 120 & LF equipment seems to sell more easily.

One aspect of the headlong plunge into digital by the masses is that many dedicated film users have or are moving up the formats because equipment is so cheap.

It's becoming noticeable though that the glut of equipment is tailing of in some areas, There's no longer large numbers of LF enlargers listed on ebay (in the UK) so second hand prices are rising. At one time about 5 years ago there would be 20-30 De Vere 504's listed at any one time and 3 or 4 5108's now it's a sporadic hand full.

Ian

 

[Aristophanes]

I've had a great run recently on Craigslist buying Canon EOS film bodies and kit zoom lenses at ridiculously low prices.

On the other hand, the KEH prices for the Olympus Zuiko lenses that I use the most have gone way, way up.

And eBay is incredibly uninteresting now (for Olympus and Mamiya stuff), whereas 2-3 years ago it was great for buyers.

So I would guess that we are seeing fundamental market changes.

I've seen the same with the Canon stuff. Not sure why, but I suspect the brand has lees oomph now with younger buyers.

But the Olympus stuff is selling because of the brand association to Micro43. The OM series is small and that helps with the uber-portable young crowd.

I have also noticed repair services popping up on eBay, which I find interesting.

 

[michaelbsc]

...When I reply, they go on about how much they originally paid for it, ...

This is the piece that I find so bizarre in people. I don't care if they paid a million dollars for it and are going to take a blood bath selling it. Unless they're going to sell it to a rich relative who feels sorry for them, how much they have invested in it is meaningless.

If that mattered, I've got a whole garage full of camera, stereo, ham radio, diving equipment, and assorted stuff that must be worth a fortune.

Somebody please pay me what I paid for all of it over the years. And by the way, I want inflation on it too. After all, I had to spend the money to store it.

MB

 

[Sirius Glass]

As a CL buyer, I take exactly the opposite approach. If someone's listed something for far more than the market value I assume they're too lazy to do their research, and don't even bother contacting them; it's not worth my time and effort to educate them. If somebody lists something I want at a fair price I'll buy without haggling.

Ditto.

Over priced items show up on the APUG's "The Wacky thing I saw on eBay (or Craigslist, the swap meet, etc.) today!"

 

[SkipA]

As a CL buyer, I take exactly the opposite approach. If someone's listed something for far more than the market value I assume they're too lazy to do their research, and don't even bother contacting them; it's not worth my time and effort to educate them. If somebody lists something I want at a fair price I'll buy without haggling.

Based on my experience, you are probably missing out on some good deals. While not everyone will be reasonable or have done research or understand the dynamics of the market, a high price for an item by itself does not signify that. They may very well have done the research and understand what the item is worth, and furthermore, have discovered that offers for items are usually in the 25% to 40% of listed price range.

Many people have learned, as I have, that CL works best for those with good horse trading instincts.

Of course, you also always have a few numbskulls like the one that Aristophanes mentioned. You just brush off those unproductive trades and move on. Someone else will offer the item you want, sooner or later.