Laborator 1200 - diffused or condensed

kal800 · Sep 26, 2022

halfaman said:
I have a Laborator 1200 with CLS501 color head and the Bimacap condensar head. I did a comparison of both printing B/W using Ilford multigrade filters. Contrast was all the same and condenser print just a bit sharper than the diffuser one but also dustier.

What formats? The common opinion is that condensers shows their strength in 35 mm while in case of MF and LF diffusers are superior. I've read Way Beyond Monochrome section regarding that and I'm still confused. It has been proven there that contrast is different on both light sources, but it can be adjusted either during film development or by means of VC filters. It is mentioned however that sharpness is higher on a condensed light source which is quite an added value for me.

One question for Durst L1200 users - between neg holder and head there is a place where you stick either Femobox or Femocon depending what type of head is used. Now, is it possible to stick Femobox with B&W head in place - I'm not asking if that makes sense but if that is possible at all. If I choose LED source from Heiland it would be built in Femobox. I would then have full flexibility to either use classical condenser head with Ilford filters to have overkill sharpness or LED source for both VC and colour prints for common use.

halfaman · Sep 26, 2022

kal800 said:
What formats? The common opinion is that condensers shows their strength in 35 mm while in case of MF and LF diffusers are superior.

I did the comparison with 35mm in 20x25cm paper. The sharpness improvement of the condenser head was modest, nothing decisive to choose it over the diffuser head.

kal800 said:
Now, is it possible to stick Femobox with B&W head in place

No idea. Never tried it.

cliveh · Sep 26, 2022

I used both condenser and diffuser and for large format I would suggest you stick with a diffuser.

kal800 · Sep 26, 2022

cliveh said:
I used both condenser and diffuser and for large format I would suggest you stick with a diffuser.

Could you explain? Why diffuser is better for larger format? I'm trying to find an answer, but cannot get one

Paul Howell · Sep 26, 2022

I think it all comes to subjective opinions, I like a condenser for LF, I rarely use a diffusion head. With 4X5 dust and minor imperfections are much smaller than 35mm and MF that fixing is not much of issue. Years ago I scaled my 4X5 negatives to match my diffusion head, over time I scaled all my negatives to print grade 2 with my condensers heads. If I print those older negatives I use a condenser head as finding grade 2 paper is really hard, not sure if I even find it. Maybe if I had color head than than an florescent tube head I would it.

Mick Fagan · Sep 26, 2022

kal800 said:
Could you explain? Why diffuser is better for larger format? I'm trying to find an answer, but cannot get one

I think the main difference with smaller formats and large format, which starts with 10cm x 13cm (4x5") negatives and gets progressively larger, is evenness of light over the image being projected onto the paper.

With condenser heads one has to have a very well made and adjusted condenser set. As the size goes up the size of the glass required is incredible and the alignment of the glass to ensure even light coverage, or intensity, gets progressively harder to control. In the case of Durst and their professional enlargers, that isn't an issue as their enlargers are manufactured to the highest possible standards.

With diffused heads the evenness of the light is quite remarkably consistent across the entire negative stage, and provided you have the correct sized enlarging lens for the format being enlarged, the quality of light isn't, or shouldn't be an issue.

Now with all enlarging you will get spots, marks and sometimes (often) dust hair lines on the print, these need to be spotted out as best you can. With the experience I have had, spotting a diffused enlarger print is certainly easier than a condenser enlarger print. Why, because the edges of the spots are softer on a diffused print and easier to merge with the background.

For that reason alone when we had a choice of doing a big enlargement, from a small negative 10x13cm (4x5") we would always use a diffused enlarger. A big enlargement in this case is a colour print starting out at around 1m x 2.5m then getting bigger.

There are always exceptions to the rule, but in general, the professional darkroom world shifted to diffused enlarger heads in the 1980's. Cost was one of the factors, but ease of use and within reason an extremely small difference in print quality output, diffused enlarger heads became the choice of professional darkroom practitioners.

Marco Gilardetti · Sep 27, 2022

I have used both condenser and diffuser heads, and I agree with Mick that the main disadvantage of condenser heads is uneven illumination.

Diffuser heads tend to deliver an image softer in contrast (non at all softer in resolution), which of course can be compensated by printing on "harder" paper, which usually just means changing the filters' figures. As already said by others, using colour heads is a breeze once you have at hand a table with all the grades' figures, and, should you need, you can have whichever grade in between.

Personally, my preference goes for diffused heads. I would pick up a condenser head only in case for any reason I'd have to reach very high contrasts, or should I need to speed up exposure times for one reason or another.

As already suggested by others, I also suggest that, at present, you leave out as many degrees of freedom as possible - so forget about the LED lamp for a while, and begin printing with the standard lamp that comes with your head / power supply combo. You'll have plenty of time to mess up your enlarger later.

I also own a Durst Laborator 1200 & Durst CLS 450 colour head setup, so in doubt drop me a line. Have fun!

halfaman · Sep 27, 2022

Mick Fagan said:
With condenser heads one has to have a very well made and adjusted condenser set. As the size goes up the size of the glass required is incredible and the alignment of the glass to ensure even light coverage, or intensity, gets progressively harder to control. In the case of Durst and their professional enlargers, that isn't an issue as their enlargers are manufactured to the highest possible standards.

Bulb position inside the Bimacap condenser head can be adjusted with a dedicated dial to achieve even ilumination. So Durst had already this issue covered.

Frank53 · Sep 27, 2022

kal800 said:
Both - Heiland has dedicated splitgrade controller for B&W, VC B&W controller which can be plugged to the existing darkroom timer and colour controller with RGB knobs.

If you are prepared to invest in the Heiland system, just do it. There is no easier way to print. I use the non led head on my LPL 4x5, with the controller and comfort unit. With the led unit you can also do color, but I don’t have any experience with that.

cliveh · Sep 27, 2022

Mick Fagan said:
I think the main difference with smaller formats and large format, which starts with 10cm x 13cm (4x5") negatives and gets progressively larger, is evenness of light over the image being projected onto the paper.

With condenser heads one has to have a very well made and adjusted condenser set. As the size goes up the size of the glass required is incredible and the alignment of the glass to ensure even light coverage, or intensity, gets progressively harder to control. In the case of Durst and their professional enlargers, that isn't an issue as their enlargers are manufactured to the highest possible standards.

With diffused heads the evenness of the light is quite remarkably consistent across the entire negative stage, and provided you have the correct sized enlarging lens for the format being enlarged, the quality of light isn't, or shouldn't be an issue.

Now with all enlarging you will get spots, marks and sometimes (often) dust hair lines on the print, these need to be spotted out as best you can. With the experience I have had, spotting a diffused enlarger print is certainly easier than a condenser enlarger print. Why, because the edges of the spots are softer on a diffused print and easier to merge with the background.

For that reason alone when we had a choice of doing a big enlargement, from a small negative 10x13cm (4x5") we would always use a diffused enlarger. A big enlargement in this case is a colour print starting out at around 1m x 2.5m then getting bigger.

There are always exceptions to the rule, but in general, the professional darkroom world shifted to diffused enlarger heads in the 1980's. Cost was one of the factors, but ease of use and within reason an extremely small difference in print quality output, diffused enlarger heads became the choice of professional darkroom practitioners.

Thanks Mick, that is what my statement was based on.

koraks · Sep 29, 2022

albada said:
There are two methods of making LED lamps:

A matrix of many LEDs. Heiland uses this design.

A few high-power LEDs around the perimeter. I used this design. Here's a link.

For uniform lighting of the diffusor, option 1 needs to have more LEDs around the perimeter and fewer (less dense or lower power) in the center.
For option 2, some of us buy LEDs mounted on "stars" such as this example.

FWIW; I was in touch with someone through here a few weeks ago who used the Heiland head and then also acquired a dichroic head. He compared the two side by side and color problems he had before with the Heiland system went away when he switched to the dichroic. Don't take this is a definitive conclusion that the Heiland LED system doesn't work as it should for color, but it does raise questions. The problems appeared to be in the same arena as what I discussed in the other thread you linked to reporting on my blog on the topic.

I'd be very interested to hear from others who are using the Heiland system for color and are in a position to compare with a dichroic setup.

Luis-F-S · Dec 29, 2022

kal800 said:
Has anyone printed on multigrade papers with colour head? Is it hard to get used to it? An idea to check the table for Y and M settings each time to set a grade seems not very appealing to me.

Piece of cake! Just get the chart and use it.

kal800 · Jan 3, 2023

Hi, finally my Laborator 1200 is set up in my darkroom and is operational. Man, it's huge - my old M70 looks like a child toy compared to that monster. I decided to go for classic condensed head - I have never had such enlarger, so I'll play with it for a while before I get LED source.

Now, few questions:

1. Got two condensers for 4x5 - Femocon 151 and 152. I'm aware that convex sides should face each over, but which goes where? If they were the same, the would have the same symbol, so for me, one should go to bottom, and the other to top, but which one?
2. Bulb power - mine was equipped with 250W Opal bulb. Durst manual recommends 150W with 250W possible within short time - what does it mean?
3. Lamp placement - how should I adjust it? I noticed some vignetting which is something new for me (I've been using diffused light before) - does it have something to do with it? How should I overcome it anyways?
4. Focusing - why there are two knobs for focusing? Is there any particular reason for it?
5. 6x6 and 135 masks for neg carrier - is there any need to acquire those?
6. Light leaks - they come from cooling holes at the bottom of B&W head - underneath the filter holder, and on sideways. Is it normal, or some sealants wore off?
7. Lens holders - I've got Lapla 39 and 50 which fits my 50 and 80 Componons and Lapla 50 for Rodagon 150, but I remember that I needed to use recessed plate which I also have now - Sitopla 39. When should I use that after all?

That's all for now, and I hope forever. Your comments much appreciated as always,

Kal800

halfaman · Jan 4, 2023

kal800 said:
Hi, finally my Laborator 1200 is set up in my darkroom and is operational. Man, it's huge - my old M70 looks like a child toy compared to that monster. I decided to go for classic condensed head - I have never had such enlarger, so I'll play with it for a while before I get LED source.

Now, few questions:

1. Got two condensers for 4x5 - Femocon 151 and 152. I'm aware that convex sides should face each over, but which goes where? If they were the same, the would have the same symbol, so for me, one should go to bottom, and the other to top, but which one?
2. Bulb power - mine was equipped with 250W Opal bulb. Durst manual recommends 150W with 250W possible within short time - what does it mean?
3. Lamp placement - how should I adjust it? I noticed some vignetting which is something new for me (I've been using diffused light before) - does it have something to do with it? How should I overcome it anyways?
4. Focusing - why there are two knobs for focusing? Is there any particular reason for it?
5. 6x6 and 135 masks for neg carrier - is there any need to acquire those?
6. Light leaks - they come from cooling holes at the bottom of B&W head - underneath the filter holder, and on sideways. Is it normal, or some sealants wore off?
7. Lens holders - I've got Lapla 39 and 50 which fits my 50 and 80 Componons and Lapla 50 for Rodagon 150, but I remember that I needed to use recessed plate which I also have now - Sitopla 39. When should I use that after all?

That's all for now, and I hope forever. Your comments much appreciated as always,

Kal800

Very quick important information.

Don't use a 250W bulb! There is high risk of destroying the mirror due to excessive heat.

Bulp placement is done with the knobs on the left side of the head.

kal800 · Jan 4, 2023

halfaman said:
Bulp placement is done with the knobs on the left side of the head.

That I know. The thing is that I do not know what should I adjust in terms of an outcome. Other words - how it looks like when the bulb is misplaced?

halfaman · Jan 4, 2023

kal800 said:
That I know. The thing is that I do not know what should I adjust in terms of an outcome. Other words - how it looks like when the bulb is misplaced?

If the bulb is not correctly placed it will produce vignetting and you will see it projecting the light without any film though the lens wide open into a sheet of paper. If so, adjust the position with the knobs until you get even ilumination.

kal800 · Jan 6, 2023

What about regular E27 LED bulb - like this:

LED classic 200W A95 E27 CDL FR ND 1PF/4 | Philips lighting

Classic LEDbulbs lamps for decorative lighting | Philips lighting

www.lighting.philips.com

Can it be applied to the condenser head?

koraks · Jan 6, 2023

kal800 said:
Can it be applied to the condenser head?

Depends. Sometimes these have a distinct hot spot that can be problematic. And some LED bulbs have an 'afterglow' that can mess up your timing. Try it out and see! They're cheap enough to take a gamble on.

RalphLambrecht · Jan 6, 2023

kal800 said:
Hi,

I've decided to give a try to the large format - 4x5. Obviously my medium format Durst Modular 70 will not handle it, so I need to have my enlarger upgraded. I would stick with Durst as I'm really happy with my M70, so the natural choice is Laborator. As a matter of fact, I've got an opportunity to buy L1200 either with dichroic CLS350 or condenser head. I'm printing on multigrade fiber paper but I consider to try colour, but I shoot B&W in 90%, so this is the major focus. Probably for colour I'll switch to hybrid anyways - reversals and drum scanner. Now, dichroic head seems to be more flexible and is less prone to dust, while condensed gives more contrast but less highlight details. Moreover it is easier to put Ilford filter in the drawer than fiddling with yellow and magenta filters - currently I've got very convenient Vario head with one knob to control grades, on the other hand I could have dichroic head now and buy Ilford Multigrade 500 or Heiland head as an ultimate solution. Could somebody help with my dilemma?

I use an L1200 with CLS450;really easy to dial-in precise contrast without dust!

halfaman · Jan 7, 2023

kal800 said:
What about regular E27 LED bulb - like this:

LED classic 200W A95 E27 CDL FR ND 1PF/4 | Philips lighting

Classic LEDbulbs lamps for decorative lighting | Philips lighting

www.lighting.philips.com

Can it be applied to the condenser head?

This is cold LED light. I think it could be problematic with VC papers and warm light is a better choice.

This is a 100% compatible bulb, it is what I use.

DR. FISCHER FISCHER Opal Bulb 150 Watt, Made In Germany - fotoimpex.com analogue photography

For enlargers Made in Germany, 150 Watt Condensor enlargers (with E-27 socket) need a matt-white bulb. You can usually see how many watts your bulb should be if you look ...

www.fotoimpex.com

koraks · Jan 7, 2023

halfaman said:
This is cold LED light. I think it could be problematic with VC papers and warm light is a better choice.

Filter values may be off and/or exposure time tracking across grades when using Multigrade filters will likely be lost. Otherwise, it should work OK.

Laborator 1200 - diffused or condensed

kal800

halfaman

cliveh

kal800

Paul Howell

Mick Fagan

Marco Gilardetti

halfaman

Frank53

cliveh

koraks

Moderator

Luis-F-S

kal800

halfaman

kal800

halfaman

kal800

LED classic 200W A95 E27 CDL FR ND 1PF/4 | Philips lighting

koraks

Moderator

RalphLambrecht

halfaman

LED classic 200W A95 E27 CDL FR ND 1PF/4 | Philips lighting

DR. FISCHER FISCHER Opal Bulb 150 Watt, Made In Germany - fotoimpex.com analogue photography

koraks

Moderator

Laborator 1200 - diffused or condensed

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