Lab for b&w that makes real darkroom contacts

[calico]

It very well may not be storage. I'm personally not convinced that it isn't a process problem, or a combination of process and manufacturing, or something like that.

Well, my residue problem (which is completely separate from the specs/mottling we're discussing now) seemed to be a combination of processing and the particular film. I imagine the lab was using the hardener on other films, too. But they said they only saw residue on FP4 (120).

If the problem is created with a certain fixer (as you suggest), that would be great to know, of course. Then I could control the situation!

 

[calico]

I think there's also the possibility that the end users are subjecting films to more extreme humidity changes than they are aware of. Especially given that bad refrigeration/ freezing habits are worryingly commonplace. I've seen what happens to 8x10 film when stuck in a fridge without appropriate humidity controls or environmental sealing - quite a spectacular mess.

With 120 film, one shouldn't have to worry about sealing. The film comes in sealed foil. Though I'm kind of questioning whether that foil is 100% airtight.

I don't know how 8x10 is wrapped. If it's in package that isn't totally sealed, I see how there would be problems.

But I don't know what you mean by "bad refrigeration/freezing habits" in regard to 120 film.

 

[Adrian Bacon]

I think there's also the possibility that the end users are subjecting films to more extreme humidity changes than they are aware of. Especially given that bad refrigeration/ freezing habits are worryingly commonplace. I've seen what happens to 8x10 film when stuck in a fridge without appropriate humidity controls or environmental sealing - quite a spectacular mess.

Yep. The only stuff I store way below room temperature is stuff that I'm planning to keep way past its expiration date. Everything else is just simply stored between 65 and 70 degrees with good air circulation. I live right off the Pacific Ocean and keeping things any cooler than room temperature is just asking for water to condense on it as soon as you take it out of the fridge or freezer. I used to keep things cold and regularly had problems. When I stopped doing that, they magically went away.

 

[calico]

Yep. The only stuff I store way below room temperature is stuff that I'm planning to keep way past its expiration date. Everything else is just simply stored between 65 and 70 degrees with good air circulation. I live right off the Pacific Ocean and keeping things any cooler than room temperature is just asking for water to condense on it as soon as you take it out of the fridge or freezer. I used to keep things cold and regularly had problems. When I stopped doing that, they magically went away.

I imagine if being in the freezer damaged my FP4......say, the foil isn't 100% airtight....keeping it out of the freezer now won't help. The damage would have already been done.

 

[Lachlan Young]

With 120 film, one shouldn't have to worry about sealing. The film comes in sealed foil. Though I'm kind of questioning whether that foil is 100% airtight.

I don't know how 8x10 is wrapped. If it's in package that isn't totally sealed, I see how there would be problems.

But I don't know what you mean by "bad refrigeration/freezing habits" in regard to 120 film.

A lot depends on how long you let the film sit at room temperature after defrosting before you open the wrapper. If you get that wrong you'll get condensation problems & potential wrapper offset.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Another thing to keep in mind is often when talking about problems, they mean time frames in the multiple months or longer. The film getting a little hot for a day or two or a little humid for a couple days generally doesn't do major damage. It's getting hot for weeks to months, or humid for weeks to months that does it. It's not so sensitive that you have to keep it refrigerated at all times all the way up until the point that you shoot it. I just recently revisited Kodak's TMAX 400 tech sheet and noticed that their guidance for storage is:

"Store unexposed film at 75°F (24°C), or lower, in the original sealed package. For protection from heat in areas with temperatures consistently higher than 75°F (24°C), you can store the film in a refrigerator. If film has been refrigerated, allow the package to warm up to room temperature for 2 to 3 hours before opening it."

Ilford says in HP5s tech sheet:

"For immediate use, store HP5 Plus in a cool (10–20°C/50-68°F), dry place in its original packaging. HP5 Plus may be stored in a fridge/freezer but allow plenty of time for the film to acclimatise prior to use."

In the short term film is robust and stable. That does no mean one can keep a roll of film or camera in the glove box for months in the summer.

Any film that I will not use immediately goes in the freezer in the original sealed package.

 

[calico]

A lot depends on how long you let the film sit at room temperature after defrosting before you open the wrapper. If you get that wrong you'll get condensation problems & potential wrapper offset.

When I was keeping the b&w film in the frig or freezer, I always gave it plenty of time to come to room temperature before opening the foil. 24 hours or more.

 

[AgX]

People have been storing films in fridges and freezers since quite some years. The new mottling issue though is more recent.

 

[calico]

People have been storing films in fridges and freezers since quite some years. The new mottling issue though is more recent.

That's true. I, too, have kept film in frig/freezer all my life with no problems. But it's the only thing I can think of that I am doing that could possibly be causing moisture issue on 120 FP4. Maybe their foil wrapping or paper has changed in last couple of years? I don't know. I hate having to give up on FP4.

 

[calico]

I was in touch with my contact at Ilford and asked if there is any news about the 120 film problems.

She said in recent batches, they have had tighter control over how the paper backing is made in terms of ink lay, amount of lacquer, and how it is dried. So that is very encouraging.

She emphasized that they think there can be many different possible triggers for the the specs/mottling problem, and it is hard to nail anything down because they are not consistent triggers — sometimes something will cause a problem and sometimes it won’t.

Two potential triggers she mentioned which I had not heard of before were the use of pyro developers and pre-soaking film. These are in addition to potential triggers we’ve already discussed here (moisture, extreme heat, film being expired, not acclimatizing film after it’s been in refrigerator or freezer).

She also confirmed, after seeing another of my images with the whitish specs, that the problem I’m having is the problem they’re trying to solve, what they referred to as “mottling” in their web site statement.

She said they still advise people to store film in a refrigerator or freezer but to be sure to acclimatize for 12-24 hours.

Sounds like they’ve been trying really hard to figure out what’s going on. My contact is always extremely nice and helpful.

 

[AgX]

She also confirmed, after seeing another of my images with the whitish specs, that the problem I’m having is the problem they’re trying to solve, what they referred to as “mottling” in their web site statement.

This is a most confusing statement by Ilford.
Interesting same time.