KW Pocket Dalco aka Patent Etui 6.5 x 9 camera

John Wiegerink · Dec 4, 2018

Does anyone here know what lens or lenses came on this camera? Before someone suggests I do a search I've spent the last hour doing just that and have come up empty. Did they come with a Steinheil Doppel Anastigmat Unofocal 105mm f4.5, which I believe is a Dialyte with four separate elements unlike the Tessar. There is almost no information that I can find on this camera at all, but it is certainly a twin to the Patent Etui that's for sure. JohnW

Ian Grant · Dec 4, 2018

They came with various lenses, most common was a 105mm f4.5 Tessar. The problem is that often larger dealers bought in 6.5x9 and 9x12 cameras without lenses and carried a stock of suitable lenses separately.

This 1935 advert shows them with a Schneider Radionar or CZJ Tessar, Benno Thorsch was one of the founders of KW. I know that Meyer also sod the cameras with their lenses fitted for a white, they also sold Leica's with an f1.5 lens long before Leitz and also made an early version of the Visoflex.

I've definitely seen Patent Etui's with other lenses in dealers adverts in the British Journal Photographic Almanacs, and on Ebay. Often Dialytes were used as "Budget" lenses but that's not always the case as there were also high end Dialytes like the Eurynar. Goerz for instance offered 4 different Dialytes on their 9x12 cameras as well as the Dagor.

If you need KW plate holders I think I have 3 sets of 3 6.5x9, I may have some film inserts as well.

Ian

AgX · Dec 4, 2018

There are at least eight versions of this camera and each came with various lenses.

John Wiegerink · Dec 4, 2018

Ian Grant said:
They came with various lenses, most common was a 105mm f4.5 Tessar. The problem is that often larger dealers bought in 6.5x9 and 9x12 cameras without lenses and carried a stock of suitable lenses separately.

This 1935 advert shows them with a Schneider Radionar or CZJ Tessar, Benno Thorsch was one of the founders of KW. I know that Meyer also sod the cameras with their lenses fitted for a white, they also sold Leica's with an f1.5 lens long before Leitz and also made an early version of the Visoflex.

I've definitely seen Patent Etui's with other lenses in dealers adverts in the British Journal Photographic Almanacs, and on Ebay. Often Dialytes were used as "Budget" lenses but that's not always the case as there were also high end Dialytes like the Eurynar. Goerz for instance offered 4 different Dialytes on their 9x12 cameras as well as the Dagor.

If you need KW plate holders I think I have 3 sets of 3 6.5x9, I may have some film inserts as well.

Ian

Thanks Ian! So, I guess there is no "standard" lens for this camera or its variants. Would the Tessar be the "top of the line" lens for cameras like this or is there another type that was more preferred at the time that this camera was manufactured. I have a small box of holders somewhere and will have to dig them out to see what I have.

AgX · Dec 4, 2018

plain triplet and modified triplet

Ian Grant · Dec 4, 2018

The standard lenses KW themselves sold with the camera were always Tessars or the Schneider Radionar. Pre-WW II the Tessar was thought of as the "top of the line" highest quality lens, CZJ had almost killed off the slower Dagor although they did make a few.

There were sharper lenses than the Tessar, top end Dialytes for instance but with 8 air/glass surfaces - six internal contrast is low, Dagors and Protars were excellent lenses higher contrast but slower. I tested a few lenses with a DSLR and posted the results here a few years ago, I was mostly looking at contrast, The Dagor was way ahead, a Tessar OK but a Dialyte had significantly lower contrast.

I guess pre-WWII camera manufacturers & photographers balance sharpness, contrast and speed when deciding on lens choice, the Tessar (and type) lenses is a good compromise as it's faster. After WWII coating turned things around, even Dialytes like the Kodak 203mm f7.7 Ektar had good contrast.

Ian

John Wiegerink · Dec 4, 2018

AgX said:
plain triplet and modified triplet

Are you saying the Steinheil Doppel Anastigmat Unofokal is a triplet?

Patrick Robert James · Dec 4, 2018

I have a Patent Etui with a Tessar I bought in Prague over 20 years ago. Personally I prefer Dialytes, but what Ian said above it all true. I have a Rodenstock Eurynar 150mm f/3.5 that I would love to get coated one day. Nice lens.

You haven't stated why you are curious though. Are you looking to buy one, or just wondering? They are pretty remarkable cameras. It is hard to believe that they fold up into such a tiny space. You'd have to see it to believe it.

John Wiegerink · Dec 4, 2018

Patrick Robert James said:
I have a Patent Etui with a Tessar I bought in Prague over 20 years ago. Personally I prefer Dialytes, but what Ian said above it all true. I have a Rodenstock Eurynar 150mm f/3.5 that I would love to get coated one day. Nice lens.

You haven't stated why you are curious though. Are you looking to buy one, or just wondering? They are pretty remarkable cameras. It is hard to believe that they fold up into such a tiny space. You'd have to see it to believe it.

I had a Patent Etui that I ended up selling a few years back and I just picked up a Pocket Dalco with no lens on the auction site. I was just trying to figure out what lens came standard on that camera. I have the 105mm Tessar and the 105mm Steinheil Unofocal. I know I have some other 105mm lenses stuck somewhere, but just have to dig to find them. I think I'm going to stick the Steinheil Unofokal on it for now. I also like Dialyte lenses and have the 165mm Eurynar that I use when I want a "certain look" with my 4x5 Toyo field camera. It works nicely as long as the sun is behind you or not in the frame. JohnW

AgX · Dec 4, 2018

John Wiegerink said:
Are you saying the Steinheil Doppel Anastigmat Unofokal is a triplet?

You asked about the typical lenses for this family of cameras.
You did not ask about the Unofacal, which even only was used at two versions.

John Wiegerink · Dec 4, 2018

AgX said:
You asked about the typical lenses for this family of cameras.
You did not ask about the Unofacal, which even only was used at two versions.

That;s true, but are you saying or do you know for sure that the Pocket Dalco cameras usually came with a triplet lens?

AgX · Dec 4, 2018

I do not know such camera.
The KW Patent Etui 6.5x9 models as said came typically all with plain and modified triplets. Per model two plain triplets against one Tessar are listed.
But that does not say anything about the actual numbers these versions were made in. And I doubt there is such information available.

John Wiegerink · Dec 4, 2018

AgX said:
I do not know such camera.
The KW Patent Etui 6.5x9 models as said came typically all with plain and modified triplets. Per model two plain triplets against one Tessar are listed.
But that does not say anything about the actual numbers these versions were made in. And I doubt there is such information available.

I agree with you about the information not being available, since I've searched everywhere to no avail. Ian's explanation seems to be realistic in that dealers had their own ideas as to what lens should go on these cameras. JohnW

Ian Grant · Dec 5, 2018

AgX said:
You asked about the typical lenses for this family of cameras.
You did not ask about the Unofacal, which even only was used at two versions.

The Unofocal was Steinheil top end Dialyte.

Patrick Robert James said:
I have a Patent Etui with a Tessar I bought in Prague over 20 years ago. Personally I prefer Dialytes, but what Ian said above it all true. I have a Rodenstock Eurynar 150mm f/3.5 that I would love to get coated one day. Nice lens.

You haven't stated why you are curious though. Are you looking to buy one, or just wondering? They are pretty remarkable cameras. It is hard to believe that they fold up into such a tiny space. You'd have to see it to believe it.

I have the 135mm f4,5 Eurynar on a Rodenstock 9x12 camera (made by Welta), I have contemplated having it coated, the company I use suggested that as their coatings are relatively soft just have the internal air/glass surfaces coated.

Ian

John Wiegerink · Dec 5, 2018

Ian,
That's good to know that the Unofocal was considered a "top end" Dialyte in the Steinheil lineup.. I've never used this 105mm Unofokal to see what it could do. I am a little curious as to what would make the Rodenstock Eurynar better than the Seinheil Unofocal since they are both four element - four group lenses. Is it just in the type of mineral compound used in making the glass? JohnW

AgX · Dec 5, 2018

John Wiegerink said:
I agree with you about the information not being available, since I've searched everywhere to no avail. Ian's explanation seems to be realistic in that dealers had their own ideas as to what lens should go on these cameras. JohnW

Yes, moreover there had been a period in german camera manufacture where retailers could models have completely customized and get their house brand on it.
How would you list such models?
I am sure Ian can tell much more on this issue than me.

Ian Grant · Dec 5, 2018

John Wiegerink said:
Ian,
That's good to know that the Unofocal was considered a "top end" Dialyte in the Steinheil lineup.. I've never used this 105mm Unofokal to see what it could do. I am a little curious as to what would make the Rodenstock Eurynar better than the Seinheil Unofocal since they are both four element - four group lenses. Is it just in the type of mineral compound used in making the glass? JohnW

It seems that with Dialytes it's selection and matching of elements that's critical, some companies lenses will be better than others. I have a Kodak 170mm f7.7 Anastigmat (Dialyte) which I must try, a good lens hood might help a lot with the contrast.

When these uncoated Dialyte lenses were common photographers worked quite differently, giving more exposure and longer development times and papers had characteristics that match the heavier density and higher contrast negatives, this helped overcome the lower contrast of the lenses.

Ian

JPD · Dec 8, 2018

I have one with Unofokal and another one with a Meyer Helioplan, both dialytes.

John Wiegerink · Dec 8, 2018

JPD said:
I have one with Unofokal and another one with a Meyer Helioplan, both dialytes.

jpd,
If you are saying you have a Pocket Dalco with a Unofokal you are the first person I have known that has a Pocket Dalco. I'm sure there are other folks that have the camera, but they sure don't seem to common. JohnW

JPD · Dec 9, 2018

John Wiegerink said:
jpd,
If you are saying you have a Pocket Dalco with a Unofokal you are the first person I have known that has a Pocket Dalco. I'm sure there are other folks that have the camera, but they sure don't seem to common. JohnW

It's a Patent Etui. It's one of those cameras that were bought in and sold by different companies using their own names. The Unofokal was one of the standard lenses KW used, and the Meyer Helioplan was another one. Here's a Pocket Dalco with Helioplan: https://www.flickr.com/photos/126027782@N03/albums/72157662382062165

Tessar in 105 and 120 mm were also common on the Patent Etui, and also Schneider Xenar and Radionar, and Meyer Trioplan. Very few had Plaubel or Leitz lenses.

I'm not sure what Dalco stands for, but there was a "Dalco" brand name used by a manufacturer of film and photo papers in the Netherlands, NFI: http://www.cameramuseum.nl/dalco.htm

AgX · Dec 9, 2018

Of course I know the dutch Dalco, and there is quite some information on dutch cameras, the vast majority unknown here at Apug, but I do not know of a Dalco camera anyhow related to the Netherlands.

A camera for the dutch market would have a metrical scale.

John Wiegerink · Dec 9, 2018

JPD said:
It's a Patent Etui. It's one of those cameras that were bought in and sold by different companies using their own names. The Unofokal was one of the standard lenses KW used, and the Meyer Helioplan was another one. Here's a Pocket Dalco with Helioplan: https://www.flickr.com/photos/126027782@N03/albums/72157662382062165

Tessar in 105 and 120 mm were also common on the Patent Etui, and also Schneider Xenar and Radionar, and Meyer Trioplan. Very few had Plaubel or Leitz lenses.

I'm not sure what Dalco stands for, but there was a "Dalco" brand name used by a manufacturer of film and photo papers in the Netherlands, NFI: http://www.cameramuseum.nl/dalco.htm

JPD,
I see by the picture of the camera you posted, that the Dalco brand label was placed on a 9x12cm version also. I appreciate the info about the camera. What Agx pointed to on a Dalco film brand makes me think the Dalco cameras are somehow tied to the company that made or distributed the Dalco brand of film. The Pocket Dalco I purchased has a maroon body and maroon bellows as well. I'll post a picture of it when I get a chance. JohnW

Ian Grant · Dec 9, 2018

JPD, you've probably

John Wiegerink said:
JPD,
I see by the picture of the camera you posted, that the Dalco brand label was placed on a 9x12cm version also. I appreciate the info about the camera. What Agx pointed to on a Dalco film brand makes me think the Dalco cameras are somehow tied to the company that made or distributed the Dalco brand of film. The Pocket Dalco I purchased has a maroon body and maroon bellows as well. I'll post a picture of it when I get a chance. JohnW

I agree with your Film/Paper company link, re-branding was quite common before WWII so it's the most likely explanation. I have a number of re-branded cameras and it's done by the manufacturers themselves in most cases.

Ian

AgX · Dec 9, 2018

I got quite some information on that photochemical manufacturer, also there is a lot of information on dutch-made or -branded cameras. No Dalco camera. Also the link would be even hard to establish in time.

Again, is that distance scale in meters or feet?

JPD · Dec 9, 2018

The dutch Dalco brand was the only one I could find, and I understand why AgX is skeptic. We have the word "Pocket", and Dalco could stand for Dal-something-Company. Also, I found that one owner has a Pocket Dalco with an english Aldis Anastigmat lens in a Compur shutter.

Another theory is that it's a KW brand name for a certain market, like the name "Tourist" that Voigtländer used for Bergheil in some countries. But "Dalco" sounds like an abbreviation similar to "Hapo" (Hans Porst).

KW Pocket Dalco aka Patent Etui 6.5 x 9 camera

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