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Kodak's down? Tri-X will survive...

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Rudeofus

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Exciting thoughts. Not enough to save Kodak. But it is the best investment, in my opinion, if you are a dedicated film user.

It might be an investment but it might as well not. And saving Kodak is neither our job, nor within our reach, especially as long as Kodak includes an inept CEO with no vision but with a corporate jet.

It's funny: for a decade or more Kodak has defined itself as a digital company and treated film like an unwanted child. Huge amounts of money were transferred away from its film division to pay for that digital transition. And now, that this whole circus nears its end, the analog folks are the only ones (besides former and current employees and of course the stock owners) who mourn the demise of Kodak.
 

Aristophanes

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Just to back this up: The small but thriving dark room crowd in our local photo club (100+ members) consists mostly of younger folks (25-45 years old) while the old members (50+) are 100% digital.

Some people like CGW, Aristophanes and NB23 really seem to get a kick out of calling film a dead medium. If they truly believed in their assertions in any way, why do they spend hours per day (look at the sheer length of Aristophanes' postings in multiple threads! ) and hang out with us luddites here on APUG, when they could get a nice smart phone and set their sail into a bright future? It looks like film has become so popular lately that APUG has attracted its share of trolls now :sad:

I do not think film is a dead medium.

I think that way a market thinks of film and its placement within is in the wrong place and needs to change to allow roll, cartridge, and sheet film to survive. This change will have to take place both on the producer and consumer side, and requires multiple pieces in play.

At the heart of it is raw economics. The home hobbyist darkroom crowd is a resourceful evangelizing source of pro-film bias, but there is nowhere near enough volume to make up for the demand loss of almost all the pro market and certainly the consumer market. The inward looking focus of the darkroom set (which had a modest but nevertheless small market impact on the industry when home darkrooms became a thriving hobby industry in 1970's and 80's , especially in suburban America and Canada with all those new basements in need of a purpose) is actually part of the problem. There will never been enough volume of this crowd to make a dent in the demand side, and, to be blunt, many people find the darkroom concept a barrier to film enjoyment. Most people just want to shoot. this is not a bad thing, but a good thing.

In order for any film production to survive you'll need a majority of the market processing through mini-labs with scans and multiple ways of sharing. The economy-of-scale these well-established systems provide offer the greatest chance for retention of enough demand to keep the rollers rolling. This should be encouraged and discussed (which APUG gets into spasms about, especially the scanning side which is now integral to the business case and consumer enjoyment). That level of industrial consumption and processing is the only way to keep the required level of industrial film production going, even with multi-format/session coating machines in play. Ilford launched their photo lab service because of that harsh economic reality. The Lomo crowd also has it right.

Film is NOT versus digital. Got that? The vast majority of film shooters shoot digital as well. That's not a threat or a zero sum game; it's an opportunity. The either/or hyperbole doesn't help.

Generally stockpiling anything perishable is a time limited solution. It's survivalist photography.
 

Simon R Galley

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Dear Kevin,

Just for the sake of accuracy : We are indeed a small company but a little larger than the $ 20m you suggested:


HARMAN technology Limited sales in 2010 were £ 23,076,000 x 1.55 USD to the £ gives sales of
$ 35,768,000 :

Dear Domaz : As for 2010 we were profitable, as for 2011 we are profitable, and I do know:

Also as a private limited company in the UK we are required under law to submit our audited accounts to companies house in the UK, they can be inspected by anyone, or indeed you can get a full copy of those accounts but you have to pay.

Regards Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :
 

Kevin Kehler

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Simon, I forgot the statement was in pounds, as opposed to dollars. It is obvious in retrospect but something I overlooked. Thanks for the correction. My point was that Ilford is a small company when compared to most global companies and would likely lack the resources to take over Tri-X production.
 

NB23

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Stormbyte, Yeah, you want to sound even smarter? Recommend all of us to spend 20,000$ each on some film that will ultimately expire in 2014.
Way to go.
 

thomas l

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Why should Ilford make Tri-X, when it has its own HP5 and Kentmere 400?

It is possible to make Tri-X, Mirko stated in this thread http://forum.fotoimpex.de/index.php?showtopic=2480&st=0 that it would cost around 2.000.000,- € and a time from one to two years to start producing Tri-X again on different coating machines. If it can be made on the coating machines used by Kodak today it's cheaper (, but there you have the problem with the big charges and are maybe producing too much film).
 

viridari

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Perhaps buying 1,000 rolls of HP5+ would have been a better down payment on the future of film.
 

MDR

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If Kodak stops making TRI-X the new Tri-X (from another company) would definetely not be identical to the original it might come close but not identical just like I doubt that Mirko's APX Clone will be identical to the original. His MCC paper is superb but it's not identical with the original product neither was his first testrun of the APX 400 clone. As has been stated by PE many times it's not that easy to recreate an emulsion even on the same machine. I also hope that Tri-X will remain in production for the next 50+years under the Kodak label.

Dominik
 

michaelbsc

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In order for any film production to survive you'll need a majority of the market processing through mini-labs with scans and multiple ways of sharing. The economy-of-scale these well-established systems provide offer the greatest chance for retention of enough demand to keep the rollers rolling.

I've thought this for a while. What's really needed is for a lab to offer absolutely stupendous scanning on disposable cameras with a "free" disposable camera coming back at you. Just like Kodak used to send you a "free" roll of film in the package. Free my foot, but it got put back in the camera, and returned with the money.
 

Rudeofus

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I do not think film is a dead medium.

I think that way a market thinks of film and its placement within is in the wrong place and needs to change to allow roll, cartridge, and sheet film to survive. This change will have to take place both on the producer and consumer side, and requires multiple pieces in play.

At the heart of it is raw economics. The home hobbyist darkroom crowd is a resourceful evangelizing source of pro-film bias, but there is nowhere near enough volume to make up for the demand loss of almost all the pro market and certainly the consumer market. The inward looking focus of the darkroom set (which had a modest but nevertheless small market impact on the industry when home darkrooms became a thriving hobby industry in 1970's and 80's , especially in suburban America and Canada with all those new basements in need of a purpose) is actually part of the problem. There will never been enough volume of this crowd to make a dent in the demand side, and, to be blunt, many people find the darkroom concept a barrier to film enjoyment. Most people just want to shoot. this is not a bad thing, but a good thing.

In order for any film production to survive you'll need a majority of the market processing through mini-labs with scans and multiple ways of sharing. The economy-of-scale these well-established systems provide offer the greatest chance for retention of enough demand to keep the rollers rolling. This should be encouraged and discussed (which APUG gets into spasms about, especially the scanning side which is now integral to the business case and consumer enjoyment). That level of industrial consumption and processing is the only way to keep the required level of industrial film production going, even with multi-format/session coating machines in play. Ilford launched their photo lab service because of that harsh economic reality. The Lomo crowd also has it right.
Aristophanes, you essentially say film is well alive but the whole world would have to change to make it so. This does mean "film is dead", and most folks here on APUG interpret you that way, just like CGW and NB23.

There's a good chance that Kodak will go down the drain real soon now, whether we like it or not. It is highly unlikely that the whole world will change before Kodak runs out of options. I envision the movie industry pick up the shambles from Kodak's film business for a few years until they have completed the conversion to either Fuji stock or digital, and it is unclear whether the movie industry will support us photographers.

Generally stockpiling anything perishable is a time limited solution. It's survivalist photography.
If a frozen stock pile keeps me going for 20 more years, what more can I ask for? Tri-X film lasts about that long in a freezer (according to PE whom you love to whole quote lately) and I am about to learn how to mix the chems myself. Call it survivalist all you want (CGW loves that term, too), I'd rather be the last one to try (with the option of failure) than the first one to give up.
 

Rudeofus

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If Kodak stops making TRI-X the new Tri-X (from another company) would definetely not be identical to the original it might come close but not identical just like I doubt that Mirko's APX Clone will be identical to the original.
Kodak has changed the recipe of Tri-X multiple times yet it's still Tri-X. I have no idea why nobody with the necessary budget should be able to recreate Tri-X. The question is rather whether all those screaming "Tri-X or nothing" would rather pay extra for the survival of Tri-X or whether they will quietly move to HP5 as soon as the remaining Tri-X stock dries up. The thread about the discontinuation of Kodachrome is longer than its customer list for it must have been for a while.

Instead of ragging at everyone trying to recreate loved film emulsions we should rather applaud their efforts. Nobody helps film if we only moan about minute differences between old and new stock and keep denouncing everything which looks just a bit different from what we use right now.
 

MDR

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Rudeofus is it really the same I think not the emulsion became finer grained had better color reproductions etc... but it's not the same as the original Tri-X or the Tri-X from the 70's it's the Tri-X from the late 90's. I applaud Mirko's and other Manufacturers wish to (re)produce the emulsions we all love but claiming that they are identical is a bit much. Ilford was (I believe) always honest in that regard HP3 >new emulsion HP5 >new emulsion HP5 plus etc.. Kodak should have done the same thing.

Dominik
 

thomas l

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Rudeofus is it really the same I think not the emulsion became finer grained had better color reproductions etc... but it's not the same as the original Tri-X or the Tri-X from the 70's it's the Tri-X from the late 90's. I applaud Mirko's and other Manufacturers wish to (re)produce the emulsions we all love but claiming that they are identical is a bit much. Ilford was (I believe) always honest in that regard HP3 >new emulsion HP5 >new emulsion HP5 plus etc.. Kodak should have done the same thing.

Dominik

Mirko didn't mention in his german thread that the film would be identical, but that it would be near identical. Even different charges of Tri-X are not completely identical. You are right, that the MCP and MCC are not identical to the original, but nobody claimed that they are identical. But the real difference within the two papers is not the emulsion, but the carrier (is it the correct english word?), so the paper itself is different because the original carrier isn't available anymore. So Adox MCP and MCC is coated onto the same paper as Ilford papers are, so the new paper is more white than the old one.

I do not use Kodak B&W films, but colour films, so I hope that they will be produced by Kodak in the future. It would much more difficult to build up a new coating line for colour films than for a b&w film.
 

Aristophanes

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Aristophanes, you essentially say film is well alive but the whole world would have to change to make it so. This does mean "film is dead", and most folks here on APUG interpret you that way.

The world HAS changed. it's the denial of that reality among some (often very bitter) filmophiles that is part of the problem. They are stuck in a 1987 time warp. The nostalgia about how film may come back vs. digital is ludicrous. It's like saying we'll use the internet but with typewriters. Or if we all spend $4,000 on hard copy encyclopedias we'll bring back that industry.

Very few enthusiastic digital photographers bad-mouth film the way that some users here bad-mouth digital, (and Lomography). Anyone who is legitimately passionate about imaging AND who wants to see film as a viable medium going forward should understand the changes and work through that information channel towards keeping as broad a film market as possible rather than parochial in-fighting and silly boundaries about what can and cannot be discussed.

How many biz classes teach that you can promote a product through censorship and stifling of discussion? Think about it.
 

MDR

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Thomas I haven't read the original thread from Mirko Fotoimpex as I've stated it can come close and I also that believe it would still be a great product just like MCP is a great product and I thank Mirko/Fotimpex for his efforts to try to ressurect the products we love but they are still different than the original product. A different base colour makes a big difference imho MCP is a great product on its own MCC it is not though it comes close. I also believe that it's kinda sad that new manufacturers are forced to recreate emulsions or have to create a "relation" to an emulsion in order to sell their products.

Dominik
 

Rudeofus

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The world HAS changed. it's the denial of that reality among some (often very bitter) filmophiles that is part of the problem. They are stuck in a 1987 time warp.

The nostalgia about how film may come back vs. digital is ludicrous. It's like saying we'll use the internet but with typewriters. Or if we all spend $4,000 on hard copy encyclopedias we'll bring back that industry.
Nobody in his right mind would suggest that film sales will return to 1990s levels and I have not read this here anywhere. But there is certainly no reason to follow your doom&gloom of how Ilford and Fuji will go out of business as a result of Kodaks troubles. As has been mentioned here already, film can profitably produced in smaller batches, and Adox seems proof enough that there is financing available for this type of product right now.

While stock piling most likely won't help Kodak, I do like the idea of stocking up on Kodak's materials for my own use, a few years' supply of what I use in Tri-X and E100VS would be quite affordable for me and would decouple me from the perils at Kodak. Whether I will have switched to other film, whether other films will even be available then, whether I will still be around by then or whether I will still enjoy photography after that remains to be seen.

Very few enthusiastic digital photographers bad-mouth film the way that some users here bad-mouth digital, (and Lomography). Anyone who is legitimately passionate about imaging AND who wants to see film as a viable medium going forward should understand the changes and work through that information channel towards keeping as broad a film market as possible rather than parochial in-fighting and silly boundaries about what can and cannot be discussed.

How many biz classes teach that you can promote a product through censorship and stifling of discussion? Think about it.
Digital vs. analog threads have ended here a long time ago and are now quickly killed by the mods so I don't really know what you refer to. We should not censor our discussions here based on controversial opinions, yet this is hardly a forum for discussing how we should all give up on film and move to digital (your endless "film industry is dying" rants are essentially that in a thinly veiled disguise). There are plenty of other platforms for discussions like that.
 

bwfans

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I hope to see Kodak color and b&w films, color papers, Fuji slide films and b&w films, and Ilford b&w films and papers and chemicals still being produced for a long time.

But frankly the only possible things left over after 10 years may just be b&w materials so Ilford will have a good chance to survive, or even grow a little if other two giants abort their b&w productions. There is a strong possibility that color papers and chemicals will co-existing with inkjet printing. Current inkjet printing fulfillment for consumer market cannot compete with C-41 process.
 

Photo Engineer

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The figure Mirko quotes is quite reasonable.

As for TriX, it has changed quite a bit over the last 50 years due to necessary changes in chemicals (environmental concerns), changes in coating methods (curtain vs slide vs extrusion) and making (automated with UF wash vs manual with noodle and then ISO washing). So, TriX today is not Trix of yesteryear.

And, if we had to change the formula, why not make a "new" product of it!?

PE
 

Aristophanes

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Nobody in his right mind would suggest that film sales will return to 1990s levels and I have not read this here anywhere. But there is certainly no reason to follow your doom&gloom of how Ilford and Fuji will go out of business as a result of Kodaks troubles. As has been mentioned here already, film can profitably produced in smaller batches, and Adox seems proof enough that there is financing available for this type of product right now.

Digital vs. analog threads have ended here a long time ago and are now quickly killed by the mods so I don't really know what you refer to. We should not censor our discussions here based on controversial opinions, yet this is hardly a forum for discussing how we should all give up on film and move to digital (your endless "film industry is dying" rants are essentially that in a thinly veiled disguise). There are plenty of other platforms for discussions like that.

The title of this thread is "Tri-X will survive". One major--in fact dominant--reason why film at all survives to this day is scanning. Link the two, which is logical and economical as every mini-lab in the world figured out 15 years ago, and suddenly it's an issue here. To reach a mass market large enough to support the necessary demand for Tri-X requires both an acknowledgement and promotion of that resource. Not having that discussion in the context of this thread is like trying to eat a plate of food without a plate.

No disguise here; just plain and simple economic facts. It's not digital vs. analog anymore. It's "without digital services, analog cannot survive". This is far different from your hyperbole and ad hominen, knee-jerk conclusion about "giving up on film". It's about the compromises that will allow Tri-X to survive.
 

thomas l

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@mdr, I think we both agree:smile: For me it isn't very important if it is the same or something different. For me is just important that I like it....
 

MDR

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Thomas I Ich stimme dir vollkommen zu/ I fully agree with you

Dominik
 

Rudeofus

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The title of this thread is "Tri-X will survive". One major--in fact dominant--reason why film at all survives to this day is scanning. Link the two, which is logical and economical as every mini-lab in the world figured out 15 years ago, and suddenly it's an issue here. To reach a mass market large enough to support the necessary demand for Tri-X requires both an acknowledgement and promotion of that resource.
Since most people mail order their film stock nowadays, I could imagine that film processing will at some point in time be divided between home processing and mail in labs. And in the case of B&W I'd think that home processing will be dominant, it's just too simple to do yourself. People who hate dark room work have left the analog camp years ago. Nobody here has an issue with minilabs, I have no idea where you got that from. What I do reject, though, is your line of argument that film can survive only if this and that and that happens all at the same time and in massive numbers. Film scales a lot better than you try to make it sound.
 

Aristophanes

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Since most people mail order their film stock nowadays, I could imagine that film processing will at some point in time be divided between home processing and mail in labs. And in the case of B&W I'd think that home processing will be dominant, it's just too simple to do yourself. People who hate dark room work have left the analog camp years ago. Nobody here has an issue with minilabs, I have no idea where you got that from. What I do reject, though, is your line of argument that film can survive only if this and that and that happens all at the same time and in massive numbers. Film scales a lot better than you try to make it sound.

All film markets are shrinking. No Neopan 1600. No Plus-X. The list goes on. There is no sign of any stemming of the decline.

Film emulsion is an economy of shared resources. Smaller players can only survive if there is enough bulk supply of core materials (substrate, chemicals, distribution, plant re-tooling, credit, market research) being purchased by larger players to create and economy of scale. This applies to the decline of film to the point where the largest purchaser in the world is close to bankruptcy, so those normally pulled along in Kodak's wake will feel severe turbulence, maybe some ups, then they will stall. Without that broad purchasing power from cinema and colour film, things will get very dicey and probably a lot more expensive for B&W. Don't for a moment imagine it's in its unique and sheltered little harbour. The ecology of film emulsions supply is very co-dependent, especially on pricing. Small B&W suppliers may see a small pip in sales upwards in an overall declining market, but they are likely to face some very serious a core input and credit supply problems. They use emulsion systems decades old, cannot scale to demand very well, and have very low capitalization profiles.

All mail in labs are hybrid processes because they have to be in order to be profit efficient. But that's taboo output and discussion here, yet is critical to a discussion of saving Tri-X and other products. Most people shoot a variety of films so it's like a well laid out table; knock one leg off it might stand. Knock two off and it all collapses. PE speaks to how difficult it is is to save Tri-X from technical perspective; I am examining the financial and a market options. No, I do not think film productions scales down well at all. It didn't from the very first days when George Eastman took his run at it.

Many in this and other forums have lamented that Kodak never put enough effort into lowering scanner costs and working more on scanning B&W. Fuji did for colour as they are minilab modules. This would have helped Tr-X. Ilford has mail order processing, scans, and prints. I would be interested to know how their B&W scans are done and their prints as well. So even getting into a discussion of Tri-X alternatives and mail order systems broaches taboo topics of scanning and inkjet printing. Pretty much anything not darkroom is hybrid and that's the limiting shame of trying to promote film, a discussion far more worthwhile than the silliness of stockpiling.

My analogy is when the ship is going down, we try and organize everyone into lifeboats. There may be losses (goodbye Plus-X), there may be sacrifices ("You mean we have to talk about scanning?"). Your analogy is grabbing a life preserver and your suitcase full of film and abandoning ship yelling "Every man for himself!"
 

Rudeofus

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All mail in labs are hybrid processes because they have to be in order to be profit efficient. But that's taboo output and discussion here, yet is critical to a discussion of saving Tri-X and other products.
You know, there is a sister site to APUG, aptly named DPUG for this type of discussion. Hybrid work flow is not a taboo topic, it's just relegated to the correct forum. To your great surprise you will find a user with just my user name posting there frequently :whistling:

Tri-X will not be saved by hybrid workflow discussions on APUG. It may be saved by ordered restructuring at Kodak together with a replacement of their management board.
 
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