Exciting thoughts. Not enough to save Kodak. But it is the best investment, in my opinion, if you are a dedicated film user.
Just to back this up: The small but thriving dark room crowd in our local photo club (100+ members) consists mostly of younger folks (25-45 years old) while the old members (50+) are 100% digital.
Some people like CGW, Aristophanes and NB23 really seem to get a kick out of calling film a dead medium. If they truly believed in their assertions in any way, why do they spend hours per day (look at the sheer length of Aristophanes' postings in multiple threads! ) and hang out with us luddites here on APUG, when they could get a nice smart phone and set their sail into a bright future? It looks like film has become so popular lately that APUG has attracted its share of trolls now
In order for any film production to survive you'll need a majority of the market processing through mini-labs with scans and multiple ways of sharing. The economy-of-scale these well-established systems provide offer the greatest chance for retention of enough demand to keep the rollers rolling.
Aristophanes, you essentially say film is well alive but the whole world would have to change to make it so. This does mean "film is dead", and most folks here on APUG interpret you that way, just like CGW and NB23.I do not think film is a dead medium.
I think that way a market thinks of film and its placement within is in the wrong place and needs to change to allow roll, cartridge, and sheet film to survive. This change will have to take place both on the producer and consumer side, and requires multiple pieces in play.
At the heart of it is raw economics. The home hobbyist darkroom crowd is a resourceful evangelizing source of pro-film bias, but there is nowhere near enough volume to make up for the demand loss of almost all the pro market and certainly the consumer market. The inward looking focus of the darkroom set (which had a modest but nevertheless small market impact on the industry when home darkrooms became a thriving hobby industry in 1970's and 80's , especially in suburban America and Canada with all those new basements in need of a purpose) is actually part of the problem. There will never been enough volume of this crowd to make a dent in the demand side, and, to be blunt, many people find the darkroom concept a barrier to film enjoyment. Most people just want to shoot. this is not a bad thing, but a good thing.
In order for any film production to survive you'll need a majority of the market processing through mini-labs with scans and multiple ways of sharing. The economy-of-scale these well-established systems provide offer the greatest chance for retention of enough demand to keep the rollers rolling. This should be encouraged and discussed (which APUG gets into spasms about, especially the scanning side which is now integral to the business case and consumer enjoyment). That level of industrial consumption and processing is the only way to keep the required level of industrial film production going, even with multi-format/session coating machines in play. Ilford launched their photo lab service because of that harsh economic reality. The Lomo crowd also has it right.
If a frozen stock pile keeps me going for 20 more years, what more can I ask for? Tri-X film lasts about that long in a freezer (according to PE whom you love to whole quote lately) and I am about to learn how to mix the chems myself. Call it survivalist all you want (CGW loves that term, too), I'd rather be the last one to try (with the option of failure) than the first one to give up.Generally stockpiling anything perishable is a time limited solution. It's survivalist photography.
Kodak has changed the recipe of Tri-X multiple times yet it's still Tri-X. I have no idea why nobody with the necessary budget should be able to recreate Tri-X. The question is rather whether all those screaming "Tri-X or nothing" would rather pay extra for the survival of Tri-X or whether they will quietly move to HP5 as soon as the remaining Tri-X stock dries up. The thread about the discontinuation of Kodachrome is longer than its customer list for it must have been for a while.If Kodak stops making TRI-X the new Tri-X (from another company) would definetely not be identical to the original it might come close but not identical just like I doubt that Mirko's APX Clone will be identical to the original.
Rudeofus is it really the same I think not the emulsion became finer grained had better color reproductions etc... but it's not the same as the original Tri-X or the Tri-X from the 70's it's the Tri-X from the late 90's. I applaud Mirko's and other Manufacturers wish to (re)produce the emulsions we all love but claiming that they are identical is a bit much. Ilford was (I believe) always honest in that regard HP3 >new emulsion HP5 >new emulsion HP5 plus etc.. Kodak should have done the same thing.
Dominik
Aristophanes, you essentially say film is well alive but the whole world would have to change to make it so. This does mean "film is dead", and most folks here on APUG interpret you that way.
Nobody in his right mind would suggest that film sales will return to 1990s levels and I have not read this here anywhere. But there is certainly no reason to follow your doom&gloom of how Ilford and Fuji will go out of business as a result of Kodaks troubles. As has been mentioned here already, film can profitably produced in smaller batches, and Adox seems proof enough that there is financing available for this type of product right now.The world HAS changed. it's the denial of that reality among some (often very bitter) filmophiles that is part of the problem. They are stuck in a 1987 time warp.
The nostalgia about how film may come back vs. digital is ludicrous. It's like saying we'll use the internet but with typewriters. Or if we all spend $4,000 on hard copy encyclopedias we'll bring back that industry.
Digital vs. analog threads have ended here a long time ago and are now quickly killed by the mods so I don't really know what you refer to. We should not censor our discussions here based on controversial opinions, yet this is hardly a forum for discussing how we should all give up on film and move to digital (your endless "film industry is dying" rants are essentially that in a thinly veiled disguise). There are plenty of other platforms for discussions like that.Very few enthusiastic digital photographers bad-mouth film the way that some users here bad-mouth digital, (and Lomography). Anyone who is legitimately passionate about imaging AND who wants to see film as a viable medium going forward should understand the changes and work through that information channel towards keeping as broad a film market as possible rather than parochial in-fighting and silly boundaries about what can and cannot be discussed.
How many biz classes teach that you can promote a product through censorship and stifling of discussion? Think about it.
Nobody in his right mind would suggest that film sales will return to 1990s levels and I have not read this here anywhere. But there is certainly no reason to follow your doom&gloom of how Ilford and Fuji will go out of business as a result of Kodaks troubles. As has been mentioned here already, film can profitably produced in smaller batches, and Adox seems proof enough that there is financing available for this type of product right now.
Digital vs. analog threads have ended here a long time ago and are now quickly killed by the mods so I don't really know what you refer to. We should not censor our discussions here based on controversial opinions, yet this is hardly a forum for discussing how we should all give up on film and move to digital (your endless "film industry is dying" rants are essentially that in a thinly veiled disguise). There are plenty of other platforms for discussions like that.
Since most people mail order their film stock nowadays, I could imagine that film processing will at some point in time be divided between home processing and mail in labs. And in the case of B&W I'd think that home processing will be dominant, it's just too simple to do yourself. People who hate dark room work have left the analog camp years ago. Nobody here has an issue with minilabs, I have no idea where you got that from. What I do reject, though, is your line of argument that film can survive only if this and that and that happens all at the same time and in massive numbers. Film scales a lot better than you try to make it sound.The title of this thread is "Tri-X will survive". One major--in fact dominant--reason why film at all survives to this day is scanning. Link the two, which is logical and economical as every mini-lab in the world figured out 15 years ago, and suddenly it's an issue here. To reach a mass market large enough to support the necessary demand for Tri-X requires both an acknowledgement and promotion of that resource.
Since most people mail order their film stock nowadays, I could imagine that film processing will at some point in time be divided between home processing and mail in labs. And in the case of B&W I'd think that home processing will be dominant, it's just too simple to do yourself. People who hate dark room work have left the analog camp years ago. Nobody here has an issue with minilabs, I have no idea where you got that from. What I do reject, though, is your line of argument that film can survive only if this and that and that happens all at the same time and in massive numbers. Film scales a lot better than you try to make it sound.
You know, there is a sister site to APUG, aptly named DPUG for this type of discussion. Hybrid work flow is not a taboo topic, it's just relegated to the correct forum. To your great surprise you will find a user with just my user name posting there frequentlyAll mail in labs are hybrid processes because they have to be in order to be profit efficient. But that's taboo output and discussion here, yet is critical to a discussion of saving Tri-X and other products.
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