Kodak's breathtaking film prices increases (at least) in Japan

[Roger Cole]

Roger's post illustrates the roll that distribution plays in the equation. In the UK, it appears that Kodak film is priced competitively with Ilford. Here in Canada, it is the same. But in the USA?
Who knows whether the source of this information is accurate, or limited to Japan only, or related only to a single distribution source.

At B&H:

Kodak:

50 sheets 4x5 TXP - $91.99 ($183.98 / 100 sheets, $1.84 per sheet)
50 sheets TMY-2 - $109.95 ($219.90 / 100 sheets, $2.20 per sheet)

Ilford:

100 sheets HP5+ $122.95, $1.23 per sheet

$1.23 versus $2.20. That's quite a difference. Even compared to TXP (a closer comparison, but Ilford no longer makes Delta 400 in sheets, which would be closer to TMY-2) it's a big difference.

Roll films are still more competitive.

 

[chip j]

Please, please, please, won't you Chinese film manufacturers solve your QC problems & sell film in the USA?

 

[RattyMouse]

I'll say it again.
If you want to use Kodak products then be well prepared to pay for them — there will be more price rises in time (I expect Fuji to raise prices in Q4). Same with Ilford. If all that sounds very unappealing, move to digital. Oh, you didn't know that is where the money is for these companies? With a persistently shrinking global market and low demand, there certainly is not money in film — I strongly suspect there is a huge financial loss in providing for film. Might be best to cut the business of using Kodak as a whipping boy and confront reality.

Triple digit prices are unreasonable.

How many triple digit price increases (from ANY product, not just film or photography) have you swallowed?

How many products do you know of thrived after triple digit price increases?

How many other film producers other than Kodak have rammed triple digit price increases down their customer's throats?

 

[JW PHOTO]

Please, please, please, won't you Chinese film manufacturers solve your QC problems & sell film in the USA?

I cringe every time I buy Chinese products. Not mainly because of quality control problems, which are more common with their goods, but because of trade and labor practices. Of course, being Dutch, I will buy it if it equals other film and is priced right. I just bought 20 rolls of Chinese GP3 120 2016 dated and really think it's a nice film. If there is profit in making film and the Chinese know it then you'll see more Chinese films. That means over time they'll also solve QC issues and their films will constantly improve. I also agree that this rumor isn't fact yet either. JW

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

Triple digit prices are unreasonable.

How many triple digit price increases (from ANY product, not just film or photography) have you swallowed?

How many products do you know of thrived after triple digit price increases?

How many other film producers other than Kodak have rammed triple digit price increases down their customer's throats?

Here's a free list (this is for Australia, no doubt the USA and other countries have similar)

• Electricity
• Rates
• Petrol (gas to you...)
• Car registration/TPI
• Traffic fines
• Tertiary education fees
• Private health insurance
  
  Many more still...

All go up and up and up...
If you cannot afford Kodak price increases, don't buy their film. It's really that simple. Prices will continue to rise over time for everything. I don't think a triple digit increase is unreasonable, but it could well be a marker to something more dramatic coming e.g. discontinuation of a product or several products.

 

[RattyMouse]

I cringe every time I buy Chinese products. Not mainly because of quality control problems, which are more common with their goods, but because of trade and labor practices. Of course, being Dutch, I will buy it if it equals other film and is priced right. I just bought 20 rolls of Chinese GP3 120 2016 dated and really think it's a nice film. If there is profit in making film and the Chinese know it then you'll see more Chinese films. That means over time they'll also solve QC issues and their films will constantly improve. I also agree that this rumor isn't fact yet either. JW

There's nothing wrong with Chinese labor practices that we westerners didnt go through during our own economic development.

I've been working on and off in China for the past decade and the advances made to working conditions here simply boggle the mind. It has been YEARS since I have seen anything even remotely like a sweatshop here. I support industrial production and so am in Chinese plants hundreds of times per year. Every plant I go to is far more modern than anything I've been to in the US. A few plants are laggards in this area but most are not.

Wages here are low but so is the cost of living. A Chinese worker who made a US style union wage would be living like an absolute king here.

That said, wages are going up so fast that inflation is a serious problem in China.

If the quality is there (and that's a big IF), I would buy from China without hesitation.

 

[Roger Cole]

Here's a free list (this is for Australia, no doubt the USA and other countries have similar)

• Electricity
• Rates
• Petrol (gas to you...)
• Car registration/TPI
• Traffic fines
• Tertiary education fees
• Private health insurance
  
  Many more still...

All go up and up and up...
If you cannot afford Kodak price increases, don't buy their film. It's really that simple. Prices will continue to rise over time for everything. I don't think a triple digit increase is unreasonable, but it could well be a marker to something more dramatic coming e.g. discontinuation of a product or several products.

The only one of those I have EVER seen increase more than 100% in less than a year would be gasoline (petrol) and that is always very volatile. The first time it came back down even faster, then went back up. There's really no justifiable reason for it to be as expensive as it is now given oil prices and demand being the lowest since the late 90s, but that's another rant entirely. As far as I know film prices aren't subject to speculative trading in film futures.

Sure the others increase, and sometimes a lot, but not more than 100% in one jump! More importantly the comparison isn't valid because there aren't viable alternatives available at far lower prices, which there certainly ARE for Kodak films, in black and white at least.

 

[RattyMouse]

Here's a free list (this is for Australia, no doubt the USA and other countries have similar)

• Electricity
• Rates
• Petrol (gas to you...)
• Car registration/TPI
• Traffic fines
• Tertiary education fees
• Private health insurance
  
  Many more still...

All go up and up and up...
If you cannot afford Kodak price increases, don't buy their film. It's really that simple. Prices will continue to rise over time for everything. I don't think a triple digit increase is unreasonable, but it could well be a marker to something more dramatic coming e.g. discontinuation of a product or several products.

None of these items have come close to 100% increases (in one shot) in my world (both US and China costs). Not even close.

I can EASILY afford Kodak's prices. I bought my Fujifilm GF670W camera in cash on a whim ( in Japan on holiday, on my second to last day I found one in the store for a good price $2300). Two months later I bought my GF670 to pair up with this camera because I enjoyed it so much. So money is not the issue with me.

It is good business practices and respect that I am concerned with. No company can throw triple digit price increases at their customers and expect back goodwill.

It is interesting to note that most of the items you list above are either government run or sole sourced utilities. Kodak is neither.

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

It is interesting to note that most of the items you list above are either government run or sole sourced utilities.

Are you quite sure about that?

 

[JW PHOTO]

There's nothing wrong with Chinese labor practices that we westerners didnt go through during our own economic development.

I've been working on and off in China for the past decade and the advances made to working conditions here simply boggle the mind. It has been YEARS since I have seen anything even remotely like a sweatshop here. I support industrial production and so am in Chinese plants hundreds of times per year. Every plant I go to is far more modern than anything I've been to in the US. A few plants are laggards in this area but most are not.

Wages here are low but so is the cost of living. A Chinese worker who made a US style union wage would be living like an absolute king here.

That said, wages are going up so fast that inflation is a serious problem in China.

If the quality is there (and that's a big IF), I would buy from China without hesitation.

Ratty,
I have talked to a few people who have business ties in China and they say the same as you. It seems some of our manufactures would rather suck profits and not modernize. A lot of that has to do with upper management and shareholders setting the rules, but they just seem to have a hard time investing back into the company for some odd reason. Oh, maybe that odd reason is that it leaves much more money for them to play with? The Chinese are getting much better at manufacturing of tools and other hard goods, but my main worry is edible food goods coming in from China. Here, in the U.S. we have regulations and still have some problems, but over there I have no idea what they can do or can't do with their food. My family policy is absolutely no food products from China, but then we don't know if some U.S. company isn't buying raw food goods and packaging it here either. We'll know when something bad happens like it did with the dog food and many dogs died. Still, this GP3 film is really very good and I don't have to eat it. JW

 

[Poisson Du Jour]

We can't belt the Chinese for the quality or otherwise of their film. The local folk probably don't care and will use the established big brands to satisfy their needs.
The Chinese appear to me to be at the top of their came in manufacturing of hard goods, especially tools and electrical items. Where is the competition??
I could, too, speak chapter and verse of the terrific quality of clothing coming out of China e.g. some (but not all) North Face garments, and others that have a long-standing footprint in the outdoor clothing and adventurewear market. Ten years ago I would never have stopped to consider a Chinese-made puffer jacket. Last weekend I purchased one for $550 made in China and the construction quality is faultless, stitching beautiful...everything. No choice really, very little is made in the USA, which once upon a time was the only stuff I ever purchased (even ahead of Made in Australia, which isn't much nowadays...).

 

[RattyMouse]

Ratty,
I have talked to a few people who have business ties in China and they say the same as you. It seems some of our manufactures would rather suck profits and not modernize. A lot of that has to do with upper management and shareholders setting the rules, but they just seem to have a hard time investing back into the company for some odd reason. Oh, maybe that odd reason is that it leaves much more money for them to play with? The Chinese are getting much better at manufacturing of tools and other hard goods, but my main worry is edible food goods coming in from China. Here, in the U.S. we have regulations and still have some problems, but over there I have no idea what they can do or can't do with their food. My family policy is absolutely no food products from China, but then we don't know if some U.S. company isn't buying raw food goods and packaging it here either. We'll know when something bad happens like it did with the dog food and many dogs died. Still, this GP3 film is really very good and I don't have to eat it. JW

Absolutely the food situation is far worse than the manufactured goods one is. You are wise to try to limit your exposure but for sure some Chinese food is slipping through. You just can't find it all.

Another thing to consider on the manufacturing side is that the vast majority of Chinese run plants are working for western companies. Very very few Chinese companies develop products, make them, market them outside of China and sell them. The majority of plants by far are working for a US or EU company. They simply build to order and the western company drives down the price paid to them so that worker safety, the environment, and quality are left with table scraps at best.

 

[Xmas]

In my local shop Trix and HP5+ are 0.01 GBP different I only use Trix if there is no HP5+.

More normally I use Kentmere or Forma. The shop is next to a Uni so the poor students clean out the cheapest film first.

If Kodak really want more the resellers won't stock the same volume. The resellers take the risk...

Silly rumour the resellers won't swallow 20%.

My local pharmacy only does HP5+ no Trix...

 

[Nuff]

Good news!!

for Ilford.

Not really, Ilford in Japan is ridicusly expensive already. Kodak was cheaper than Fuji.

To give you some idea of how expensive Ilford is:
Kodak Tmax 100 120 pro pack: 1920yen
Fuji Acros 100 120 pro pack: 2100yen
Ilford Delta 100 120 x 5: 3495yen

Even with the price increases it will still be much cheaper than Ilford. I'm surprised Ilford manages to sell any film in Japan at the prices they charge.

 

[darkosaric]

There's nothing wrong with Chinese labor practices that we westerners didnt go through during our own economic development.

I've been working on and off in China for the past decade and the advances made to working conditions here simply boggle the mind. It has been YEARS since I have seen anything even remotely like a sweatshop here. I support industrial production and so am in Chinese plants hundreds of times per year. Every plant I go to is far more modern than anything I've been to in the US. A few plants are laggards in this area but most are not.

Wages here are low but so is the cost of living. A Chinese worker who made a US style union wage would be living like an absolute king here.

That said, wages are going up so fast that inflation is a serious problem in China.

If the quality is there (and that's a big IF), I would buy from China without hesitation.

When I was working in telecom industry I was level 2 support, China was level 3 support for some product. My Chinese college was driving new VW Golf - working similar job as me in Europe. I was (still) not able to afford new VW Golf.

 

[Jaf-Photo]

There is an old contractor's adage: If you really don't want the job, submit an outrageous bid.

It seems more and more that these film producers don't want the job.

Yeah, agreed.

It looks like they are pricing themselves out of the market.

Then they'll get an excuse for cancelling the film and blaming the consumers.

 

[Xmas]

Not really, Ilford in Japan is ridicusly expensive already. Kodak was cheaper than Fuji.

To give you some idea of how expensive Ilford is:
Kodak Tmax 100 120 pro pack: 1920yen
Fuji Acros 100 120 pro pack: 2100yen
Ilford Delta 100 120 x 5: 3495yen

Even with the price increases it will still be much cheaper than Ilford. I'm surprised Ilford manages to sell any film in Japan at the prices they charge.

They probably don't.

Thanks that is interesting my UK shop does not stock the Delta five pack but five singles is only a little more than a GBP more than the Acros five pack which is at 21.23GBP.

And my Yen to GBP converter is broke!

There is a risk that resellers might not stock at all or as much at large differences, they take the risk, of expiry and reduced margin.

The cheaper films are frequently out of stock at my shop. It is a big pigeon hole shop for mono, with air con.

We have it hot today at 17C max (63F).

 

[Alan Klein]

It's interesting that roll film pricing is staying competitive while sheet film is escalating dramatically. This could be because Kodak sheet film purchases are going down more quickly and roll film is holding steady. Less buyers. So the cost per unit increases. That has to be passed along to the sheet film customer.

At B&H:

Kodak:

50 sheets 4x5 TXP - $91.99 ($183.98 / 100 sheets, $1.84 per sheet)
50 sheets TMY-2 - $109.95 ($219.90 / 100 sheets, $2.20 per sheet)

Ilford:

100 sheets HP5+ $122.95, $1.23 per sheet

$1.23 versus $2.20. That's quite a difference. Even compared to TXP (a closer comparison, but Ilford no longer makes Delta 400 in sheets, which would be closer to TMY-2) it's a big difference.

Roll films are still more competitive.

 

[mooseontheloose]

Not really, Ilford in Japan is ridicusly expensive already. Kodak was cheaper than Fuji.

To give you some idea of how expensive Ilford is:
Kodak Tmax 100 120 pro pack: 1920yen
Fuji Acros 100 120 pro pack: 2100yen
Ilford Delta 100 120 x 5: 3495yen

Even with the price increases it will still be much cheaper than Ilford. I'm surprised Ilford manages to sell any film in Japan at the prices they charge.

Well, I still buy Ilford film (and paper, and chemicals) in Japan, and I doubt I'm the only one. As far as I know, at least for the film shops I frequent, there are no pro-packs (5x120) of Ilford film to buy (usually just singles and occasionally 10-packs). The 10-pack of HP5+ I bought recently was 4560 yen, which brings it much closer to the Fuji Acros film price range (at least, per roll). That being said, if the prices are really going to go up that much, I may have to do a big purchase soon. I'm lucky I have a second fridge for storage, which is a bit of a luxury in a small Japanese apartment. Even though I support all of the big 3 film/paper producers out there, Ilford is my first choice for almost everything I do photographically, but the reality is I may have to shift loyalties to keep things affordable. The good (or bad) thing about Japan is that there are a number of Fujifilm products (film, paper, chemicals) that are available here and nowhere else (AFAIK) -- they don't have English translations, but are easy enough to understand and can substitute for other brands.

 

[Alan Klein]

This could be the reason Kodak spun off its film division during bankruptcy proceedings to Kodak Alaris. They didn't see it as a long term profit center compared to the non-film divisions they kept. All of this is not a good sign for film users. The higher film prices go, the more people that will switch to digital. Then less buyers will raise film prices again in an endless spiral that leads where?

My guess the market still has more shaking out to do. Higher prices; less manufacturers. The range of products will continue to contract within each of the remaining manufacturers.

 

[Xmas]

This could be the reason Kodak spun off its film division during bankruptcy proceedings to Kodak Alaris. They didn't see it as a long term profit center compared to the non-film divisions they kept. All of this is not a good sign for film users. The higher film prices go, the more people that will switch to digital. Then less buyers will raise film prices again in an endless spiral that leads where?

My guess the market still has more shaking out to do. Higher prices; less manufacturers. The range of products will continue to contract within each of the remaining manufacturers.

KA say they will sell film while it is profitable and since they get their film from EK there is a dependency on cine which took a price hike Jan14.

http://www.kodak.com/ek/US/en/NewCo_Home_Top/About_Us/Frequently_Asked_Questions.htm

There is not an indication that any of the KA or EK factories are going to start up making film at a lower volume point.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

They probably don't.

Thanks that is interesting my UK shop does not stock the Delta five pack but five singles is only a little more than a GBP more than the Acros five pack which is at 21.23GBP.

We have it hot today at 17C max (63F).

Harman Technology doesn't offer films in a pro-pack (5 rolls) anymore.

Tom

 

[Simon R Galley]

We have not sold pro-packs for over 10 years.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

 

[JW PHOTO]

Absolutely the food situation is far worse than the manufactured goods one is. You are wise to try to limit your exposure but for sure some Chinese food is slipping through. You just can't find it all.

Another thing to consider on the manufacturing side is that the vast majority of Chinese run plants are working for western companies. Very very few Chinese companies develop products, make them, market them outside of China and sell them. The majority of plants by far are working for a US or EU company. They simply build to order and the western company drives down the price paid to them so that worker safety, the environment, and quality are left with table scraps at best.

That's exactly why unemployment is so high in the U.S. and the wages are going lower. I remember years back(I think late 70's- early 80's) Kodak setup a film making plant in Mexico. Now, that would be alright if they just made the products to be sold in Mexico, but that's not the case. They wanted cheaper labor and one much more important thing......................What's that one more important thing? NO EPA! They didn't have to worry about the environment there like in Rochester, NY. Just dump all your waste in the Rio Grande and call it good. Remember, GREED is what drives capitalism. Like it or not! All the Western and EU companies with shell plants in China were making profits before, but being greedy makes you want more and more profits and now it's at the expense of the worker in the mother country. Maybe Kodak's film making and coating machines will end up in China one of these days? JW

 

[Xmas]

We have not sold pro-packs for over 10 years.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

Used my last Ilford 220 from one last week, how am I supposed to keep up? Lots of HP5+ cine left.